Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:51 am

Malcolm wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
So, can you just answer the question? Would it matter to you if Zoroastrianism influenced Buddhism? If so, why?


It would not matter; but it didn't — not in any meaningful way that I can see.


That's what I thought. I agree. I don't see the influence, but it wouldn't matter to me if it did since it really doesn't mean anything if the teaching is ultimately different.

So, I'm wondering why it seems to matter to invisiblediamond, especially considering that he says he knows they are incompatible and he has said that only means an 'influence' in the same sense as the way Buddhism redefines local culture. He seemed to get upset that we weren't open-minded enough to accept this when I think we really are because we really don't care. On the other hand, he really seems to care, so why does he care? Just curious.

Anyway, fun thread. It prompted me to make this new thread: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14924
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby smcj » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:26 am

A footnote of sorts; I heard a Teaching Course cd that said the terms 'devas' and 'asuras' were from Zoroastrianism. I might even have them is storage. I can't cite chapter and verse though.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2088
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Kunzang » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:40 am

Interesting and kinda weird discussion.

There is at least one scholar that places Padmasambhava (and by extension maybe Dzogchen) in the Zoroastrian cultural sphere:

Herbert V. Guenther (I can almost hear the groans of complaint from the audience as I write his name).

I don't know what modern scholars think of his ideas. In his introduction to "The Teachings of Padmasambhava" (a Brill publication, :smile: Malcolm) he presents a couple of ideas that are germane to this discussion. Firstly, he thinks that it's incorrect to equate Oddiyana with just the Swat Valley and also speculates that "Urgyan [is] the name for a vast, but vaguely defined and definable, region in which by the time of Padmasambhava Christian, Gnostic, and Manichaean ideas were very much alive". Secondly, and maybe more importantly for invisiblediamond's idea about the Zororastrian possible influences on Dzogchen, he says of Padmasambhava's cryptonymic name that it "place[s] him firmly in the main stream of the magi" (he does elaborate on reasons for this, though I don't find them very convincing).

Anyways, I thought I'd add in this bit of weirdness from good ol' Guenther.
Kunzang
 
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 3:10 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:10 pm

smcj wrote:A footnote of sorts; I heard a Teaching Course cd that said the terms 'devas' and 'asuras' were from Zoroastrianism. I might even have them is storage. I can't cite chapter and verse though.


You could also study the history indo-european languages: The word deva exists in different forms in most european languages, like latin deus, english divine & deity, etc.. Sanskrit asura, or persian ahura, is more controversial, my own opinion is that scandinavian word asa is from the same root. The origin of these words is certainly older than zoroastrianism.
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Aemilius » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:37 pm

Kunzang wrote:Interesting and kinda weird discussion.

There is at least one scholar that places Padmasambhava (and by extension maybe Dzogchen) in the Zoroastrian cultural sphere:

Herbert V. Guenther (I can almost hear the groans of complaint from the audience as I write his name).

I don't know what modern scholars think of his ideas. In his introduction to "The Teachings of Padmasambhava" (a Brill publication, :smile: Malcolm) he presents a couple of ideas that are germane to this discussion. Firstly, he thinks that it's incorrect to equate Oddiyana with just the Swat Valley and also speculates that "Urgyan [is] the name for a vast, but vaguely defined and definable, region in which by the time of Padmasambhava Christian, Gnostic, and Manichaean ideas were very much alive". Secondly, and maybe more importantly for invisiblediamond's idea about the Zororastrian possible influences on Dzogchen, he says of Padmasambhava's cryptonymic name that it "place[s] him firmly in the main stream of the magi" (he does elaborate on reasons for this, though I don't find them very convincing).

Anyways, I thought I'd add in this bit of weirdness from good ol' Guenther.


In 1400's Oddiyana was in present day Afghanistan. There is a travel diary of an indian buddhist Buddhaguptanath, who went there and reported that people of Oddiyana are nowadays (in 1400's) all muslims (!). David Templeman has written an article about it, and translated some writings of Buddhaguptanath.

Before 1400's Oddiyana or Orgyen was even further to the North-West from India. Long before 1400's it was the present day Georgia, i.e. Ge-orgyen.
The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby tatpurusa » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:49 pm

Aemilius wrote:
smcj wrote:A footnote of sorts; I heard a Teaching Course cd that said the terms 'devas' and 'asuras' were from Zoroastrianism. I might even have them is storage. I can't cite chapter and verse though.


You could also study the history indo-european languages: The word deva exists in different forms in most european languages, like latin deus, english divine & deity, etc.. Sanskrit asura, or persian ahura, is more controversial, my own opinion is that scandinavian word asa is from the same root. The origin of these words is certainly older than zoroastrianism.


see here:
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14897&start=120#p201874
tatpurusa
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Michael_Dorfman » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:38 am

Aemilius wrote:Before 1400's Oddiyana or Orgyen was even further to the North-West from India. Long before 1400's it was the present day Georgia, i.e. Ge-orgyen.
The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...


The name George also has Greek variants which date back prior to the time of the Buddha, and the accepted etymology ties it to the word "ergon", or "work". Trying to tie it to Oḍḍiyāna seems fanciful at best.
Michael_Dorfman
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 am

' Fanciful ' is one way to describe it.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:08 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
smcj wrote:A footnote of sorts; I heard a Teaching Course cd that said the terms 'devas' and 'asuras' were from Zoroastrianism. I might even have them is storage. I can't cite chapter and verse though.


You could also study the history indo-european languages: The word deva exists in different forms in most european languages, like latin deus, english divine & deity, etc.. Sanskrit asura, or persian ahura, is more controversial, my own opinion is that scandinavian word asa is from the same root. The origin of these words is certainly older than zoroastrianism.


see here:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p201874


Thanks!
See this about the history and possible origin of indo-european languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:50 pm

Aemilius wrote:The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...


This is incredibly silly.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12323
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...


This is incredibly silly.


Say it not so. Today is George Day - let's gaze into the bindu and recite the new song "George, George, George of the..."
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica
User avatar
pueraeternus
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby mutsuk » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...


This is incredibly silly.


You're far too gentle Malcolm, Aemilius' statement is frenetically stupid. Who says Georges means the guru of Orgyen? The etymology is "the one who works on the land". And as far as Saint Georges is concerned, Aemilius, look at his dates (even alleged ones) and look at those of Guru Rinpoche (even alleged ones): 5 centuries at least between them. :crazy:
"Ancient aliens" are starting to sow ridiculous seeds throughout. I prefer Marvel comics indeed.
mutsuk
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby tatpurusa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:58 pm

Aemilius wrote:


Thanks!
See this about the history and possible origin of indo-european languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages


What is your point exactly? What I wrote is based on comparative Indo-European linguistics.
tatpurusa
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:33 am

tatpurusa wrote:
Aemilius wrote:


Thanks!
See this about the history and possible origin of indo-european languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages


What is your point exactly? What I wrote is based on comparative Indo-European linguistics.


I thought what You wrote is good.

There are several related points:
1. The area of indo-european languages is vaster than the Avestan culture and the Vedic indian culture.
2. There is an older common ancestry to all of the indo-european cultures, which is called PIE, or Proto-Indo-European.
3. There are interesting maps about the areas of spreading of indo-european culture during different historical ages. The centre of the early spreading of the Indo-european language is somehwere close to the present day Georgia. India is in the periphery of this area.
4. You needn't limit yourself to the avestan and vedic cultural areas. The languages Germania, Iceland, Scandinavia, etc.. belong to the same cultural influence. We find exact paralles to the war between Asuras and Devas in the old poems of Edda, where they are called Asas(asuras) and Vanis(devas). The icelandic and scandinavian version of the story is similar to the the persian one, it too sides with the Asas(Asuras), who are thus represented as the "good guys".
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...


This is incredibly silly.


Truth and history is made by the conquerors, by those who win the wars. The origin of Saint George, and of many other christian saints and legends in Europe, lies in pre-christian cultures. These prechristian figures, or godlike persons and heroes had to be assimilated in the propaganda and doctrine of the winner.

I take it as a fact that Guru Rimpoche had lived for 3000 or 1500 years before coming to Tibet. His influence had thus spread far and wide in the world during that time. The christianized story of Saint George is one instance where his influence is recognizable in the existing cultural traditions of planet Earth.
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby alpha » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:34 am

Aemilius wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The name George thus means Guru of Orgyen. The myth or history of Saint George subduing, or slaughtering, the Dragon derives from the legend of Padmasambhava, who is the Guru of Orgyen, i.e. Saint George.
The name George has many variants in european languages, like italian Giorgio, german Jörg & Jürgen, hungarian György, swedish Jörgen, etc...


This is incredibly silly.


Truth and history is made by the conquerors, by those who win the wars. The origin of Saint George, and of many other christian saints and legends in Europe, lies in pre-christian cultures. These prechristian figures, or godlike persons and heroes had to be assimilated in the propaganda and doctrine of the winner.

I take it as a fact that Guru Rimpoche had lived for 3000 or 1500 years before coming to Tibet. His influence had thus spread far and wide in the world during that time. The christianized story of Saint George is one instance where his influence is recognizable in the existing cultural traditions of planet Earth.


But you don't seem to live on planet earth.How do you know that?
AOM
alpha
 
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm
Location: kent

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:57 pm

The same way we all know rebirth is a fact?
Image

Hehehehehehe.
Karma Dondrup Tashi
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby orgyen jigmed » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:58 pm

"Blind persons designate various names to the body of a sturdy elephant, but the elephant itself does not become other than what it was." - Longchen Rabjampa
"If the aspiration for enlightenment is your motivation in coming to see me, there is no remedy except meditative practice. I, too, will only practice." - Zurpoche Sakya Jungne
User avatar
orgyen jigmed
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:26 pm

Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:40 am

Malcolm wrote:BTW Mahāmudra guys. If you really take seriously what your citations say -- then why bother with gradualism and defending it.
To put it simply: Different strokes for different folks. Dzogchen practice does it too. If you don't get the pointing out then there are secondary practices to keep you alive and move you in the right direction.
However, I must point out to you that it is really not possible to find the notion of primordial buddhhood in Mahamudra texts explained in the unique style of Dzogchen.
So the main difference is literary device? So what? :shrug:
Its ok. Its not a competition. Fundamentally, we can all agree that Dzogchen and Mahamudra are describing the same state. But the paths are different.
I would actually say that SOMETIMES the paths are different.
Greg, your citations are ok, but you really should have cited Virupa:

All sentient beings are emanations of mahāmudrā,
the essence of those emanations is the forever non-arising dharmadhātu,
also all characteristics of dualistic appearances, happiness, suffering and so on,
are the play of mahāmudrā, the original dharmatā.


and:

Since realism is destroyed in its own state, one is liberated from samsara and nirvana.
Since vidyā is pure in the basis, it is called “Perfect Buddhahood.”
Since phenomena and mind are exhausted in the state of exhaustion, therefore it is explained as “nirvana”,
uncontrived, unchanging, totally liberated from everything to be given up or to attain.


--Lion Doha
I'll add them to my repertoire. Thank you very much! It is the first time I have read doha by Virupa (apart from one instance in Dowmans boook Masters of Mahamudra). Care to name the (English) source?
You guys who claim to be practitioners of Mahāmudra really need to poked every now and again.
Dude, we all need the goad and lash now and again! ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9989
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:59 am

alpha wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Truth and history is made by the conquerors, by those who win the wars. The origin of Saint George, and of many other christian saints and legends in Europe, lies in pre-christian cultures. These prechristian figures, or godlike persons and heroes had to be assimilated in the propaganda and doctrine of the winner.

I take it as a fact that Guru Rimpoche had lived for 3000 or 1500 years before coming to Tibet. His influence had thus spread far and wide in the world during that time. The christianized story of Saint George is one instance where his influence is recognizable in the existing cultural traditions of planet Earth.


How do you know that?


Which part of it do You mean?
In the traditional life stories of Guru Rimpoche, aka Guru Padma Sambhava, he is said to have lived for 3000 years, before coming to Tibet. (You can find this information for example in the Crystal Mirror Annals of Dharma Publishing.) Guru Rimpoche was born only a few years after the Parinirvana of Buddha Shakyamuni. Tibetan scholars have interpreted his lifespan to be more likely 1500 years, because they wanted to fit it with the accepted history of Buddhism. 3000 years would take the Parinirvana of Buddha Shakyamuni too far back in time. Personally I think that 3000 years is possible.
Needless to say that modern scholars, who have absolutely no faith in the attainments of Siddhas, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, say that he lived around 700 and 800 CE!
I take it as a starting point that the attainments of Buddhas, Bodhisattavas and Siddhas over the length of lifespan exist in reality. This reveals a new vision of human history, which is usually quite unknown to the laterday buddhists.
svaha
User avatar
Aemilius
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

PreviousNext

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: heart, quince, Yahoo [Bot] and 23 guests

>