Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:53 pm

I feel like I'm at a Golden Dawn convention. Alesteir Crowley is about to make a rant about something and throw a copy of '777' down on the table and stomp away in a huff.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:56 pm

MANTRA WITH VIBRATORY LIGHT COLORS
I haven't read this Manual of "KHSHNOOM" pdf that was linked yet, but I read that it was written in the 60s in the prologue: "The author of this book passed away on the 3rd April 1968.
The Manuscript was however, completed a few years before his death and was waiting finance for the publication." So, I just want to point out that the 60s were a time of occult revival in full swing. I'm not sure where this author was located or who he came in contact with throughout his life, but the fact is that the 1800s Order of the Golden Dawn and it's offshoots all used mantra coupled with light colors and find it important to vibrate the intonations of their "mantra," too. The difference is that the mantras are Hebrew, sometimes just a single Hebrew letter, actually. They also claimed a Zoroastrian influence, but their entire system of gnosis was pretty much wrapped around the Hebrew alphabet and the Qabalah.

But, I don't think there's anything similar about it, actually. Big deal if they associate color with sounds.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:56 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:I feel like I'm at a Golden Dawn convention. Alesteir Crowley is about to make a rant about something and throw a copy of '777' down on the table and stomp away in a huff.

LOL, funny how you wrote that as I was writing my reply about the Golden Dawn!
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:58 pm

ok that was weird
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:58 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:[quote="Malcolm" ]

There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.[/quote]

Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.[/quote]

Oh for christ's sake -- the Chinese also equate their elements and color, and so to the Greeks (black, red, yellow and white).[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Z influence bc it's that old and pinioned between both regions.[/quote]


Dude, they all come from Sumeria... and then? Aliens.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:11 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:Thinking for myself is preferable nonetheless. I agree all tantric elements have these aspects. So I'm seeing these in a new light.

The phenomena I see is Buddhism collides with cultures and then subverts its fundamental notions. I agree DC and Z are incompat. It seems DC takes the fundamentals of Z, ie, the dust that forms the basis of everything, aka bindus, and says their fundamentally unreal. That seems to sum up Buddhisma role when it lands in fresh territory. In West, it goes science of Vipashyana.


This particular bit makes a lot more sense than what I thought he was saying, however I still don't believe it or agree with it. I don't see any reason to think Dzogchen came from Zoroastrianism, but it is true that Buddhism "collides with cultures and then subverts its fundamental notions," as he put it. So, if there was any truth to this, it would make sense that it happened that way and that they are totally incompatible in actuality. But, it didn't happen that way, so it doesn't matter. Fun thread, though. Now I have a new PDF to read.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:22 pm

padma norbu wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:Thinking for myself is preferable nonetheless. I agree all tantric elements have these aspects. So I'm seeing these in a new light.

The phenomena I see is Buddhism collides with cultures and then subverts its fundamental notions. I agree DC and Z are incompat. It seems DC takes the fundamentals of Z, ie, the dust that forms the basis of everything, aka bindus, and says their fundamentally unreal. That seems to sum up Buddhisma role when it lands in fresh territory. In West, it goes science of Vipashyana.


This particular bit makes a lot more sense than what I thought he was saying, however I still don't believe it or agree with it. I don't see any reason to think Dzogchen came from Zoroastrianism, but it is true that Buddhism "collides with cultures and then subverts its fundamental notions," as he put it. So, if there was any truth to this, it would make sense that it happened that way and that they are totally incompatible in actuality. But, it didn't happen that way, so it doesn't matter. Fun thread, though. Now I have a new PDF to read.


Look at the west. We still flock to Thor. Where did that come from. We still believe in a work ethic. Where did that come from? Even though the culture is extinct, we still think those things. They become talismans. Assumptions. Bonpo say, Shang Shung people were culturally more Persian. This is where dharma met persia and had a baby. Buddha did the same to Maghadan Vedism. If you take Buddha and DC the whole Continents memes die. But I don't hold these memes. I am being asked to buy into them so they can be undone by the system. But since these aren't my assumptions, I don't need these systems. I was conditioned about the work ethic and modern stupid ideas. So... We must find our own ways...
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby tatpurusa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:37 pm

invisiblediamond wrote: Bonpo say, Shang Shung people were culturally more Persian. This is where dharma met persia and had a baby.


This is wrong again. Bonpo do not say anything similar.
They say that Buddha Tonpa Shenrab Miwo lived 18000 years ago in the land called Tazhig, part of Olmo Lungring, which is the pure land corresponding to Shambhala (not to Pakisthan, even if Pakisthan means "pure land", or rather "land of the pure" ;) )

Now even if the word "Tazhig" resembles to Tadjik (relatives of Iranians) and can refer to Persia, it does not mean that Persians lived there 18000 years ago. Neither does it mean that ancient Tazhig was Persia or Iran. So please do not cite Bon as confirming your visions originating from the clarity-enhancements of Guru-Weed. Even less so speaking about Shang-Shung, because, should you have not noticed till now, it is quite a different matter/culture/land/folk to this all.
BTW Shang-Shung culture was heavily influenced by Indian culture as evidenced in their languange. These influences are demonstrably Indian and not Persian.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:50 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Look at the west. We still flock to Thor.Where did that come from?


Marvel Comics.

We still believe in a work ethic. Where did that come from?


John Calvin.

Bonpo say, Shang Shung people were culturally more Persian. This is where dharma met persia and had a baby.


That is silly. Zhang zhung was literally next door to Kashmir.

Occam's razor, baby.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:55 pm

Besides invisiblediamond, would anybody care either way? It doesn't seem like anyone really cares in this thread, they are just stating why it the idea is demonstrably factually incorrect. If it influenced Dzogchen the way Vedanta influenced Vajrayana, it wouldn't actually matter to anyone, right?

Just want to clear this up.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:07 pm

padma norbu wrote:Besides invisiblediamond, would anybody care either way? It doesn't seem like anyone really cares in this thread, they are just stating why it the idea is demonstrably factually incorrect. If it influenced Dzogchen the way Vedanta influenced Vajrayana, it wouldn't actually matter to anyone, right?

Just want to clear this up.



Who says Vedanta influenced Vajrayāna?
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby tatpurusa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:12 pm

It's rather the other way round: Buddhism influenced Vedanta. One can detect this even in the Bhagavad Gita.
Even Shankaracarya was accused by some of being a hidden Buddhist.
What kind of Buddhism it was exactly exercising this influence, is another question.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Besides invisiblediamond, would anybody care either way? It doesn't seem like anyone really cares in this thread, they are just stating why it the idea is demonstrably factually incorrect. If it influenced Dzogchen the way Vedanta influenced Vajrayana, it wouldn't actually matter to anyone, right?

Just want to clear this up.



Who says Vedanta influenced Vajrayāna?


The Vajra (thunderbolt) is from Hindu origin, is it not? Then, we have the various deities that were assimilated into Vajrayana like Saraswati, etc.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby mutsuk » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:53 pm

tatpurusa wrote: Tazhig, part of Olmo Lungring, which is the pure land corresponding to Shambhala

The country is called Tazig (various spelling but the later one is stag-gzig(s)) and Olmo Lungring is supposed to be a part of it. There is no equivalence between Olmo lungring and Shambhala before the 14th century. This comes from Tulku Loden who "invented" New Bon, found himself to be a tulku of Guru Rinpoche and elaborated a lot of equivalences with standard representations of Buddhism, such as Shambhala. The problem is : there is no mount Yungdrung Gutsek in Shambhala (while there is one in Olmo Lungring) and no Kalkin dynasty in Olmo Lungring (while there is one in Shambhala). And the various lam-yig of both "countries" show dramatic differences... I know Lopon vouches for the equivalence because of the authority of Tulku Loden's work (the Zibji), but this is a view of the mind, nothing else.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:56 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Besides invisiblediamond, would anybody care either way? It doesn't seem like anyone really cares in this thread, they are just stating why it the idea is demonstrably factually incorrect. If it influenced Dzogchen the way Vedanta influenced Vajrayana, it wouldn't actually matter to anyone, right?

Just want to clear this up.



Who says Vedanta influenced Vajrayāna?


The Vajra (thunderbolt) is from Hindu origin, is it not? Then, we have the various deities that were assimilated into Vajrayana like Saraswati, etc.


The vajra is not "Hindu" it is Vedic, and is a shared mytheme in all Indian religions, just like Saraswati, Tārā and so on.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:08 am

Malcolm wrote:
padma norbu wrote:The Vajra (thunderbolt) is from Hindu origin, is it not? Then, we have the various deities that were assimilated into Vajrayana like Saraswati, etc.


The vajra is not "Hindu" it is Vedic, and is a shared mytheme in all Indian religions, just like Saraswati, Tārā and so on.


Yay, slowclap. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_rel ... 200_BCE.29

So, the Vajra appeared in Vedanta prior to the existence of Vajrayana, just like Saraswati, Tara and so on. As Buddhism took on the culture of Japan and China and Tibet, it also took on aspects of the Vedic culture. If Buddhism first appeared in the Americas, it would have likely taken some Native American cultural aspects.

So, back to the question... If Zoroastrianism influenced Dzogchen the way Vedanta influenced Vajrayana, it wouldn't actually matter to anyone, right? If it matters to anyone, I'd like to know why.
Last edited by padma norbu on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:14 am

padma norbu wrote:So, the Vajra appeared in Vedanta prior to the existence of Vajrayana...


Yes, and the Vajra appeared in Buddhism before Vedanta existed.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
padma norbu wrote:So, the Vajra appeared in Vedanta prior to the existence of Vajrayana...


Yes, and the Vajra appeared in Buddhism before Vedanta existed.


The earliest mention of the Vajra is in the Rigveda, a part of four Vedas. It is described as the weapon of Indra, the god of heaven and the chief deity of the Rigvedic pantheon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra

I'm not even sure what the point of this discussion was after I posted the first Wikipedia link, which shows:

Late Vedic period - Brahmanas and Upanishads - Vedanta (850-500 BCE)
The late Vedic period (9th to 6th centuries BCE) marks the beginning of the Upanisadic or Vedantic period.[web 4][note 7][59][note 8] This period heralded the beginning of much of what became classical Hinduism, with the composition of the Upanishads,[60]:183 later the Sanskrit epics, still later followed by the Puranas.
Upanishads form the speculative-philosophical basis of classical Hinduism and are known as Vedanta (conclusion of the Vedas).[61]

followed by

Vedanta - Brahma sutras (200 BCE)
Main article: Vedanta
In earlier writings, Sanskrit 'Vedānta' simply referred to the Upanishads, the most speculative and philosophical of the Vedic texts. However, in the medieval period of Hinduism, the word Vedānta came to mean the school of philosophy that interpreted the Upanishads.

and

Spread of Jainism and Buddhism (500-200 BCE)

I mean, what are you even arguing about?

So, can you just answer the question? Would it matter to you if Zoroastrianism influenced Buddhism? If so, why?
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:36 am

padma norbu wrote:
I mean, what are you even arguing about?


Vedanta originally referred the Upanishads [End of the Vedas], only two of which are pre-Buddhist (Brihadaranyaka and the Candogya).

However as a _school_, it is post- buddhist by many centuries.
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Re: Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:37 am

padma norbu wrote:
So, can you just answer the question? Would it matter to you if Zoroastrianism influenced Buddhism? If so, why?


It would not matter; but it didn't — not in any meaningful way that I can see.
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