Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:43 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:InvisibleDiamond,

You do realize Pakistan was a part of India until quite recently right???

Pakistan was FULL of Hindus, who slowly left during the events of Independence.

Your comments are quite hurtful, insensitive, and most of all historically wrong.


I'm tracing my roots here. These are my people. I don't care about your political biases.



Are you actually denying Pakistan was a part of India?

And was full of Hindus until quite recently?


Why would I do that when my Hindu family is from Prepartition Pakistan aka Punjab? My point that evades you is before Hindus were there there was a Vedic culture and PreVedic befor that. These tribes are all still around apparently. Much can be learned about the different stages of history of this region based on the relative primitive ness vs modernity of the tribe. Some dress more arctic, the Brokpa. Some are more warm, Pashtun. With the Brokpa you see feature that resemble every group, even from Caucasian to Native American. If you look into their songs you can see the elements that wee t to Persia and the elements that went to India, and the elements that went to Americas. It's fascinating.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Paul, with all due respect, this is a preposterous thing to for you to say. You engage in wild speculation and then claim to need to see evidence?


I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable.


First, there is no Persian Mysticism. Parsis have not lived in Iran for centuries. They mostly live in Western India. Sure, under the Shah some were invited back, but then it stopped. There are only 30 thousand Parsis in Iran, who all were invited back by the Shah.

Second, the notion of five elements physical body reverting to light clearly is found in oral instructions connected to the Cakrasamvara completion stage practices. Secondly, the motion that the vāyus of the body have color is widespread in India Buddhist tantra.

Third, even your presentation of the elements of Zorastrianism is dramatically wrong. Sure, I can accept that ideas like Sukhavati and so on were influenced by Persian culture, no problem. But Zoroastrianism and Dzogchen are incompatible. It is simply irresponsible speculation on your part to continue this way. You have no evidence, you have no proof.

I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.


You don't need to follow the self-deceived, your are doing an excellent job of deceiving yourself.


Thinking for myself is preferable nonetheless. I agree all tantric elements have these aspects. So I'm seeing these in a new light.

The phenomena I see is Buddhism collides with cultures and then subverts its fundamental notions. I agree DC and Z are incompat. It seems DC takes the fundamentals of Z, ie, the dust that forms the basis of everything, aka bindus, and says their fundamentally unreal. That seems to sum up Buddhisma role when it lands in fresh territory. In West, it goes science of Vipashyana.
Last edited by invisiblediamond on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:46 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable. The evidence doesn't support the theory that this stuff is Buddhist without any outside influence other than Buddhists. The PreVedic tribes even share ideas with DC. I find this to be an impeachment of the claim some dakini recited it. All these exotic DC notions come from somewhere on Earth. All one has to do is look at the records of what people in the world believed to find out who thought those ideas first, and then who thought those ideas before that. Where you have such similarity in exotic ideas in such a contained radius, it becomes clear we are looking at different stages of evolution if a train of thought which is colliding g with buddhism and then an assimilation happens. This is classic Hegelian historical dialectics. It's obvious to me anyway. I'm no trying to sell this. If you reject me, fine. But I for one do t follow so called experts over the cliff into meaningless oblivion. At least I want to know that nothing is true so that I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.


Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.

To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.
Last edited by OddiyanaIsIndia on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:48 pm

invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.


There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.

Anyway, this thread has been sunk by useless speculation.

BTW Mahāmudra guys. If you really take seriously what your citations say -- then why bother with gradualism and defending it.

However, I must point out to you that it is really not possible to find the notion of primordial buddhhood in Mahamudra texts explained in the unique style of Dzogchen.

Its ok. Its not a competition. Fundamentally, we can all agree that Dzogchen and Mahamudra are describing the same state. But the paths are different.

Greg, your citations are ok, but you really should have cited Virupa:

All sentient beings are emanations of mahāmudrā,
the essence of those emanations is the forever non-arising dharmadhātu,
also all characteristics of dualistic appearances, happiness, suffering and so on,
are the play of mahāmudrā, the original dharmatā.


and:

Since realism is destroyed in its own state, one is liberated from samsara and nirvana.
Since vidyā is pure in the basis, it is called “Perfect Buddhahood.”
Since phenomena and mind are exhausted in the state of exhaustion, therefore it is explained as “nirvana”,
uncontrived, unchanging, totally liberated from everything to be given up or to attain.


--Lion Doha

You guys who claim to be practitioners of Mahāmudra really need to poked every now and again.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:51 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable. The evidence doesn't support the theory that this stuff is Buddhist without any outside influence other than Buddhists. The PreVedic tribes even share ideas with DC. I find this to be an impeachment of the claim some dakini recited it. All these exotic DC notions come from somewhere on Earth. All one has to do is look at the records of what people in the world believed to find out who thought those ideas first, and then who thought those ideas before that. Where you have such similarity in exotic ideas in such a contained radius, it becomes clear we are looking at different stages of evolution if a train of thought which is colliding g with buddhism and then an assimilation happens. This is classic Hegelian historical dialectics. It's obvious to me anyway. I'm no trying to sell this. If you reject me, fine. But I for one do t follow so called experts over the cliff into meaningless oblivion. At least I want to know that nothing is true so that I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.


Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.

To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.


Thanks. They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:54 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable. The evidence doesn't support the theory that this stuff is Buddhist without any outside influence other than Buddhists. The PreVedic tribes even share ideas with DC. I find this to be an impeachment of the claim some dakini recited it. All these exotic DC notions come from somewhere on Earth. All one has to do is look at the records of what people in the world believed to find out who thought those ideas first, and then who thought those ideas before that. Where you have such similarity in exotic ideas in such a contained radius, it becomes clear we are looking at different stages of evolution if a train of thought which is colliding g with buddhism and then an assimilation happens. This is classic Hegelian historical dialectics. It's obvious to me anyway. I'm no trying to sell this. If you reject me, fine. But I for one do t follow so called experts over the cliff into meaningless oblivion. At least I want to know that nothing is true so that I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.


Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.

To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.


Thanks. They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.


Says the guy who doesn't understand Pakistan and Swat Valley was a part of India.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.


There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.


Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:56 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.


There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.


Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.



You do realize even Afghanistan was squarely within the Indian cultural sphere?

Ever heard of Mes Aynak?

Afghanistan is even farther than Swat Valley.
Last edited by OddiyanaIsIndia on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:57 pm

;)
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.

To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.


Thanks. They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.


Says the guy who doesn't understand Pakistan and Swat Valley was a part of India.


You are misstating testimony. I would know better than you since my family history comes fom there and had our ancestral land ceded to the Muslims. At Udiyana, there was no India. If you can't differentiate modern history and ancient then I'm afraid our discussion won't get anywhere.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:00 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:You are misstating testimony. I would know better than you since my family history comes fom there and had our ancestral land ceded to the Muslims. At Udiyana, there was no India. If you can't differentiate modern history and ancient then I'm afraid our discussion won't get anywhere.


At Oddiyana there was no India?

Even in farther way Afghanistan, there was India.

Ever heard of those Buddha statues the Taliban blew up?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:01 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.


I see, so what is your archaeological evidence to proves an Iranian source for certain aspects of Dzogchen, namely body of light(Since everything else in Dzogchen is squarely Buddhist like emptiness, three kāyas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, etc.)?

Unless you want to try and convince us that all Mahāyāna is really just Zoroastrianism in drag.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:02 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.


Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.



You do realize even Afghanistan was squarely within the Indian cultural sphere?

Ever heard of Mes Aynak?

Afghanistan is even farther than Swat Valley.


These areas change hands like the winds change directions. To say that these tribal areas are ever under rule is a mere nominal designation not then and not now have these tribals ever been ruled unless they leav the safety of their enclave.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:03 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:These areas change hands like the winds change directions. To say that these tribal areas are ever under rule is a mere nominal designation not then and not now have these tribals ever been ruled unless they leav the safety of their enclave.



If you are unaware of the LONG history of Dharma in Afghanistan, you are beyond help.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:04 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.


There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.


Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.


Oh for christ's sake -- the Chinese also equate their elements and color, and so to the Greeks (black, red, yellow and white).

Mayan elements:
East – Red : Father Sun, the Way of the Visionary: Reed, Knowledge, Crocodile, Serpent, Offering

West – Blue/Black: Grandmother Moon/Ocean, the Way of the Teacher: Monkey, Bird, Rainstorm, Dawn, Deer

South – Yellow: Mother Earth, the Way of the Healer: Road, Wisdom, Sun, Net, Seed

North – White: Father Sky, the Way of the Sacred Warrior: Jaguar, Flint, Wind, Death, Dog
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:05 pm

That wasn't India 'OddiyanaisIndia...that is a modern construct. It was Mahabharat.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Clarence » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:05 pm

What about Daoist influences on Dzogchen? Are there any or is that also speculation? They have those age-less masters and so on.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.


I see, so what is your archaeological evidence to proves an Iranian source for certain aspects of Dzogchen, namely body of light(Since everything else in Dzogchen is squarely Buddhist like emptiness, three kāyas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, etc.)?

Unless you want to try and convince us that all Mahāyāna is really just Zoroastrianism in drag.


Anthropological. The tribes are like looking at different layers of rock sediment. They appear to be in various stages starting with the Brokpa. The body of light seems like a development of this sound and light mysticsm. And yes, Sukhavati, dakinis, yazatas, the permanent lands, resemble one another. I am conjecturing. But not wildly. I'm looking at evidence. It would make for an interesting project.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:[quote="Malcolm" ]

There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.[/quote]

Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.[/quote]

Oh for christ's sake -- the Chinese also equate their elements and color, and so to the Greeks (black, red, yellow and white).[/quote][/quote][/quote]


Z influence bc it's that old and pinioned between both regions.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby OddiyanaIsIndia » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:10 pm

I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.

He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:49 pm

OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.

He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.


I'm looking pre zero
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