Why would I do that when my Hindu family is from Prepartition Pakistan aka Punjab? My point that evades you is before Hindus were there there was a Vedic culture and PreVedic befor that. These tribes are all still around apparently. Much can be learned about the different stages of history of this region based on the relative primitive ness vs modernity of the tribe. Some dress more arctic, the Brokpa. Some are more warm, Pashtun. With the Brokpa you see feature that resemble every group, even from Caucasian to Native American. If you look into their songs you can see the elements that wee t to Persia and the elements that went to India, and the elements that went to Americas. It's fascinating.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:invisiblediamond wrote:I'm tracing my roots here. These are my people. I don't care about your political biases.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:InvisibleDiamond,
You do realize Pakistan was a part of India until quite recently right???
Pakistan was FULL of Hindus, who slowly left during the events of Independence.
Your comments are quite hurtful, insensitive, and most of all historically wrong.
Are you actually denying Pakistan was a part of India?
And was full of Hindus until quite recently?
Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Thinking for myself is preferable nonetheless. I agree all tantric elements have these aspects. So I'm seeing these in a new light.Malcolm wrote:First, there is no Persian Mysticism. Parsis have not lived in Iran for centuries. They mostly live in Western India. Sure, under the Shah some were invited back, but then it stopped. There are only 30 thousand Parsis in Iran, who all were invited back by the Shah.invisiblediamond wrote:I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable.Malcolm wrote: Paul, with all due respect, this is a preposterous thing to for you to say. You engage in wild speculation and then claim to need to see evidence?
Second, the notion of five elements physical body reverting to light clearly is found in oral instructions connected to the Cakrasamvara completion stage practices. Secondly, the motion that the vāyus of the body have color is widespread in India Buddhist tantra.
Third, even your presentation of the elements of Zorastrianism is dramatically wrong. Sure, I can accept that ideas like Sukhavati and so on were influenced by Persian culture, no problem. But Zoroastrianism and Dzogchen are incompatible. It is simply irresponsible speculation on your part to continue this way. You have no evidence, you have no proof.
You don't need to follow the self-deceived, your are doing an excellent job of deceiving yourself.I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.
The phenomena I see is Buddhism collides with cultures and then subverts its fundamental notions. I agree DC and Z are incompat. It seems DC takes the fundamentals of Z, ie, the dust that forms the basis of everything, aka bindus, and says their fundamentally unreal. That seems to sum up Buddhisma role when it lands in fresh territory. In West, it goes science of Vipashyana.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.invisiblediamond wrote: I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable. The evidence doesn't support the theory that this stuff is Buddhist without any outside influence other than Buddhists. The PreVedic tribes even share ideas with DC. I find this to be an impeachment of the claim some dakini recited it. All these exotic DC notions come from somewhere on Earth. All one has to do is look at the records of what people in the world believed to find out who thought those ideas first, and then who thought those ideas before that. Where you have such similarity in exotic ideas in such a contained radius, it becomes clear we are looking at different stages of evolution if a train of thought which is colliding g with buddhism and then an assimilation happens. This is classic Hegelian historical dialectics. It's obvious to me anyway. I'm no trying to sell this. If you reject me, fine. But I for one do t follow so called experts over the cliff into meaningless oblivion. At least I want to know that nothing is true so that I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.
To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.
Last edited by OddiyanaIsIndia on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.
Anyway, this thread has been sunk by useless speculation.
BTW Mahāmudra guys. If you really take seriously what your citations say -- then why bother with gradualism and defending it.
However, I must point out to you that it is really not possible to find the notion of primordial buddhhood in Mahamudra texts explained in the unique style of Dzogchen.
Its ok. Its not a competition. Fundamentally, we can all agree that Dzogchen and Mahamudra are describing the same state. But the paths are different.
Greg, your citations are ok, but you really should have cited Virupa:
All sentient beings are emanations of mahāmudrā,
the essence of those emanations is the forever non-arising dharmadhātu,
also all characteristics of dualistic appearances, happiness, suffering and so on,
are the play of mahāmudrā, the original dharmatā.
and:
Since realism is destroyed in its own state, one is liberated from samsara and nirvana.
Since vidyā is pure in the basis, it is called “Perfect Buddhahood.”
Since phenomena and mind are exhausted in the state of exhaustion, therefore it is explained as “nirvana”,
uncontrived, unchanging, totally liberated from everything to be given up or to attain.
--Lion Doha
You guys who claim to be practitioners of Mahāmudra really need to poked every now and again.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Thanks. They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.invisiblediamond wrote: I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable. The evidence doesn't support the theory that this stuff is Buddhist without any outside influence other than Buddhists. The PreVedic tribes even share ideas with DC. I find this to be an impeachment of the claim some dakini recited it. All these exotic DC notions come from somewhere on Earth. All one has to do is look at the records of what people in the world believed to find out who thought those ideas first, and then who thought those ideas before that. Where you have such similarity in exotic ideas in such a contained radius, it becomes clear we are looking at different stages of evolution if a train of thought which is colliding g with buddhism and then an assimilation happens. This is classic Hegelian historical dialectics. It's obvious to me anyway. I'm no trying to sell this. If you reject me, fine. But I for one do t follow so called experts over the cliff into meaningless oblivion. At least I want to know that nothing is true so that I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.
To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Says the guy who doesn't understand Pakistan and Swat Valley was a part of India.invisiblediamond wrote:Thanks. They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.invisiblediamond wrote: I'm inferring from what the evidence shows. The similarities to Persian mysticism is unmistakeable. The evidence doesn't support the theory that this stuff is Buddhist without any outside influence other than Buddhists. The PreVedic tribes even share ideas with DC. I find this to be an impeachment of the claim some dakini recited it. All these exotic DC notions come from somewhere on Earth. All one has to do is look at the records of what people in the world believed to find out who thought those ideas first, and then who thought those ideas before that. Where you have such similarity in exotic ideas in such a contained radius, it becomes clear we are looking at different stages of evolution if a train of thought which is colliding g with buddhism and then an assimilation happens. This is classic Hegelian historical dialectics. It's obvious to me anyway. I'm no trying to sell this. If you reject me, fine. But I for one do t follow so called experts over the cliff into meaningless oblivion. At least I want to know that nothing is true so that I won't follow the self deceived and self professed.
To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.Malcolm wrote:There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
invisiblediamond wrote:Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.Malcolm wrote:There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.
You do realize even Afghanistan was squarely within the Indian cultural sphere?
Ever heard of Mes Aynak?
Afghanistan is even farther than Swat Valley.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
You are misstating testimony. I would know better than you since my family history comes fom there and had our ancestral land ceded to the Muslims. At Udiyana, there was no India. If you can't differentiate modern history and ancient then I'm afraid our discussion won't get anywhere.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:Says the guy who doesn't understand Pakistan and Swat Valley was a part of India.invisiblediamond wrote:Thanks. They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:
Ronald Davidson (Tibetan Renaissance), David Germano (several essays), and AW Barber (Buddhism in the Krishna Valley of Andhra) all say Dzogchen developed squarely within Buddhism.
To posit a Persian influence is embarrassingly stupid.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
At Oddiyana there was no India?invisiblediamond wrote: You are misstating testimony. I would know better than you since my family history comes fom there and had our ancestral land ceded to the Muslims. At Udiyana, there was no India. If you can't differentiate modern history and ancient then I'm afraid our discussion won't get anywhere.
Even in farther way Afghanistan, there was India.
Ever heard of those Buddha statues the Taliban blew up?
Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
I see, so what is your archaeological evidence to proves an Iranian source for certain aspects of Dzogchen, namely body of light(Since everything else in Dzogchen is squarely Buddhist like emptiness, three kāyas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, etc.)?invisiblediamond wrote: They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.
Unless you want to try and convince us that all Mahāyāna is really just Zoroastrianism in drag.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
These areas change hands like the winds change directions. To say that these tribal areas are ever under rule is a mere nominal designation not then and not now have these tribals ever been ruled unless they leav the safety of their enclave.OddiyanaIsIndia wrote:invisiblediamond wrote:Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.
You do realize even Afghanistan was squarely within the Indian cultural sphere?
Ever heard of Mes Aynak?
Afghanistan is even farther than Swat Valley.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
invisiblediamond wrote: These areas change hands like the winds change directions. To say that these tribal areas are ever under rule is a mere nominal designation not then and not now have these tribals ever been ruled unless they leav the safety of their enclave.
If you are unaware of the LONG history of Dharma in Afghanistan, you are beyond help.
Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Oh for christ's sake -- the Chinese also equate their elements and color, and so to the Greeks (black, red, yellow and white).invisiblediamond wrote:Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.Malcolm wrote:There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.invisiblediamond wrote: It's fascinating.
Mayan elements:
East – Red : Father Sun, the Way of the Visionary: Reed, Knowledge, Crocodile, Serpent, Offering
West – Blue/Black: Grandmother Moon/Ocean, the Way of the Teacher: Monkey, Bird, Rainstorm, Dawn, Deer
South – Yellow: Mother Earth, the Way of the Healer: Road, Wisdom, Sun, Net, Seed
North – White: Father Sky, the Way of the Sacred Warrior: Jaguar, Flint, Wind, Death, Dog
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
That wasn't India 'OddiyanaisIndia...that is a modern construct. It was Mahabharat.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
What about Daoist influences on Dzogchen? Are there any or is that also speculation? They have those age-less masters and so on.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
Anthropological. The tribes are like looking at different layers of rock sediment. They appear to be in various stages starting with the Brokpa. The body of light seems like a development of this sound and light mysticsm. And yes, Sukhavati, dakinis, yazatas, the permanent lands, resemble one another. I am conjecturing. But not wildly. I'm looking at evidence. It would make for an interesting project.Malcolm wrote:I see, so what is your archaeological evidence to proves an Iranian source for certain aspects of Dzogchen, namely body of light(Since everything else in Dzogchen is squarely Buddhist like emptiness, three kāyas, buddhas, bodhisattvas, etc.)?invisiblediamond wrote: They are missing the anthropological evidence so their text based analysis, since texts are dubious, sheds rather little light on what may or may not have really happened.
Unless you want to try and convince us that all Mahāyāna is really just Zoroastrianism in drag.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]Malcolm wrote:Oh for christ's sake -- the Chinese also equate their elements and color, and so to the Greeks (black, red, yellow and white).invisiblediamond wrote:Do the Maya equate color and elements? I know of know other two groups who have this idea. They live in the same region. These are clearly coming from a common cultural root. Failing to see this is fantasizing about one's tradition.Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of fascinating things. But mixing up Zoroastrianism with Dzogchen? Really, there is no solid basis for this.
Z influence bc it's that old and pinioned between both regions.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.
He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.
He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?
I'm looking pre zeroOddiyanaIsIndia wrote:I see the core error of InvisibleDiamond.
He doesn't understand geography or borders of pre-1947 India.