Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

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Does Dzogchen have Persian or Zoroastrian influences?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:I've got this really strong feeling that Dzogchen is a restatement of Zoroastrianism, transmuting the impure matter into light.?



I think you are confusing Zoroastrianism with Manichaeism.


Nope. But you have to read their esotericism called Kshnoom.

http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/AManualofKshnoom.pdf

They have mantras invoking not just sound but "vibratory colors". Hair and nails are mentioned a lot as impure. Special care must be taken around them. They have an epithet for Ahura Mazda, which is something like "ever fresh and blissful." They also tie in astrology big time. Here's a kicker: Ahura, breaks down to "Ah" "ura". Ah is "it is" in Avestan. Ah is the first main point of Kshnoom.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:35 pm

Simon E. wrote:Dzogchen was not originally Bon OR Buddhist...it represents the essence of both and precedes both.
Either are adequate to provide a portal to it.


That's because it was Zoroastrian.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:42 pm

michaelb wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Our primordial condition is atemporal.

Oh, I see. Primordial condition is atemporal, but Dzogchen as a variety of theory and practice is very much set in the temporal history of Indo Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks.

Mahamudra is Indo-Tibetan,the lineage originates in India from Tilopa, Naropa, Savaripa, Saraha, etc... Garab Dorje,on the other hand, was Persian.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:46 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
michaelb wrote:Garab Dorje,on the other hand, was Persian.


...a Zoroastrian, probably Zarathustra.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:12 am

invisiblediamond wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Dzogchen was not originally Bon OR Buddhist...it represents the essence of both and precedes both.
Either are adequate to provide a portal to it.


That's because it was Zoroastrian.


No. I am certainly open the idea that Dzogchen teachings as well as Tantric teachings in India may have been influenced by Zoroastrian and Manichean concepts, but the link you provide seems to be a Pharsee document which is synchronic, i.e., it does not parse ancient Zoroastrianism from later Greek and Manichaean ideas. This is a more clear presentation:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/elements
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:17 am

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Dzogchen was not originally Bon OR Buddhist...it represents the essence of both and precedes both.
Either are adequate to provide a portal to it.


That's because it was Zoroastrian.


No. I am certainly open the idea that Dzogchen teachings as well as Tantric teachings in India may have been influenced by Zoroastrian and Manichean concepts, but the link you provide seems to be a Pharsee document which is synchronic, i.e., it does not parse ancient Zoroastrianism from later Greek and Manichaean ideas. This is a more clear presentation:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/elements


It's not syncronic it's aim is to describe Kshnoom, the esotericism of Z. I don't think the Greek and Manichean elements are in there. By the time of M, there could be DC influence back that direction. Not so much for Kshnoom
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:23 am

michaelb wrote:Garab Dorje,on the other hand, was Persian.


Garab Dorje was from Oḍḍiyāna.
http://www.atikosha.org
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:24 am

invisiblediamond wrote:It's not syncronic it's aim is to describe Kshnoom, the esotericism of Z. I don't think the Greek and Manichean elements are in there.


Synchronic means that its ideas are not parsed out in terms of when they arose.

That text has a lot of strange writing which may very well be a modern Parsee mysticism, but I do not think it is very old.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:28 am

Malcolm wrote:
michaelb wrote:Garab Dorje,on the other hand, was Persian.


Garab Dorje was from Oḍḍiyāna.


That far North, the people were all Aryan sharing culture up to the Pamirs.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:It's not syncronic it's aim is to describe Kshnoom, the esotericism of Z. I don't think the Greek and Manichean elements are in there.


Synchronic means that its ideas are not parsed out in terms of when they arose.

That text has a lot of strange writing which may very well be a modern Parsee mysticism, but I do not think it is very old.


Yes. But I have to assume the Parsees did what their site says they did, which is go to India to do one thing, preserve the true Z-ism. Including, not mix racially. I'll agree this isn't a smoking gun. But just the fact that stuff is in there is amazing.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:34 am

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:It's not syncronic it's aim is to describe Kshnoom, the esotericism of Z. I don't think the Greek and Manichean elements are in there.


Synchronic means that its ideas are not parsed out in terms of when they arose.

That text has a lot of strange writing which may very well be a modern Parsee mysticism, but I do not think it is very old.


Yes. But I have to assume the Parsees did what their site says they did, which is go to India to do one thing, preserve the true Z-ism. Including, not mix racially. I'll agree this isn't a smoking gun. But just the fact that stuff is in there is amazing.


Yes, it is interesting.

M
http://www.atikosha.org
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:37 am

invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
michaelb wrote:Garab Dorje,on the other hand, was Persian.


Garab Dorje was from Oḍḍiyāna.


That far North, the people were all Aryan sharing culture up to the Pamirs.


Nevertheless, Oḍḍiyāna was fully within the Indian cultural sphere, not the Persian cultural sphere.

M
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Synchronic means that its ideas are not parsed out in terms of when they arose.

That text has a lot of strange writing which may very well be a modern Parsee mysticism, but I do not think it is very old.


Yes. But I have to assume the Parsees did what their site says they did, which is go to India to do one thing, preserve the true Z-ism. Including, not mix racially. I'll agree this isn't a smoking gun. But just the fact that stuff is in there is amazing.


Yes, it is interesting.

M


What I found most interesting was the Kshnoom doc describing the manthras have vibrationary colors. I've never heard any Indian guru talk about the colors invoked by mantra. This is an aspect of mantra practice that appears foreign to India. Before I read abt Z, I thought this was unique to DC.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Garab Dorje was from Oḍḍiyāna.


That far North, the people were all Aryan sharing culture up to the Pamirs.


Nevertheless, Oḍḍiyāna was fully within the Indian cultural sphere, not the Persian cultural sphere.

M[/quote]

If I'm right then we might have to rework that theory. Even Kashmiri, some speak dialects which are more similar to Persian. Like Burushaski.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:48 am

I agree these elements are in Vajrayana as well to a lesser degree.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:57 am

invisiblediamond wrote:What I found most interesting was the Kshnoom doc describing the manthras have vibrationary colors. I've never heard any Indian guru talk about the colors invoked by mantra. This is an aspect of mantra practice that appears foreign to India. Before I read abt Z, I thought this was unique to DC.

I don't know if this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surat_shabd_yoga
is related, and I don't really know much about it, but what you say brought it to mind, specifically the part about "the path of light and sound".
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:57 am

invisiblediamond wrote:
If I'm right then we might have to rework that theory. Even Kashmiri, some speak dialects which are more similar to Persian. Like Burushaski.


It is well established that Odḍḍiyāna was well within the Indo-cultural sphere. We have many reports of Chinese pilgrims going through it and so on.

As far as Burushaki goes:

Although Burushaski has been compared to almost any language on earth, no fully convincing relationships have yet been established.

http://dickgrune.com/NatLang/Summaries/Burushaski.pdf

While this document claims that no written Burushaki language exists, it is claimed that Nubchen translated the Anuyoga tantras from this language, and in fact Burushaki words do exist in the Anuyoga tantras.

But there is no relationship here with Persian.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:29 am

Malcolm wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
If I'm right then we might have to rework that theory. Even Kashmiri, some speak dialects which are more similar to Persian. Like Burushaski.


It is well established that Odḍḍiyāna was well within the Indo-cultural sphere. We have many reports of Chinese pilgrims going through it and so on.

As far as Burushaki goes:

Although Burushaski has been compared to almost any language on earth, no fully convincing relationships have yet been established.

http://dickgrune.com/NatLang/Summaries/Burushaski.pdf

While this document claims that no written Burushaki language exists, it is claimed that Nubchen translated the Anuyoga tantras from this language, and in fact Burushaki words do exist in the Anuyoga tantras.

But there is no relationship here with Persian.


I just watched this doc about this old tribe in Pakistan, near the Swat, the Kalash tribe (among others). These Aryan tribals were more numerous back then. I would argue, the Chinese accounts of Oddiyana, i.e., their infatuation with mantric formula, is decidedly Zoro... in influence. I see culture as spectral. In this area you have a blend of both the Proto-Aryan, Persian and Indian in the Swat and around Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgistan, etc... This whole area was under heavy historical influence by Persia, India and China... It would be difficult to pigeon-hole Swat as "culturally Indian." Then, as now, it had its distinct idiosyncrasies that made it seem a little far North of Indian.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:30 am

Simon E. wrote:
Lindama wrote:sky gazing... there is no inner most thought

Who is your Dzogchen teacher Lindama ?


Priests practicing Kshnoom, also apparently practice this. And facing the open sky is important to their ritual.
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Re: Dzogchen: Nongradual Buddhahood?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:35 am

I've been looking at these Aryan tribals a lot recently. Check out the one braid look...

Image

I saw a vid with an old shaman woman with only her two front teeth. With the one braid look in the front, scarily similar to Ekajati. It's like staring back into time...
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