Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:34 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
theanarchist wrote:Then of course there is the four Dzogchen "samayas", which are unbreakable since they are not conditioned.


Other vajrayana samaya connections are just as unbreakable.


Not what I meant. What I meant was that Dzogchen samayas are connected with reality. The 22 Vajrayāna samayas of the new tantra schools or the 29 samayas of the old tantra tradition are connnected with view and conduct.

Because even if it's nowhere as explicit as in dzogchen, in a highest yogatantra initiation what makes the initiation valid is the conferrence of a spark of the absolute nature of the deity.


No divine spark is implanted, Gurus are not creator gods.

What happens during an anuttarayoga initiation is an arrangement of dependent origination. Each initiation has its own samayas connected with the practices which it permits one to do. Please Kongtrul's Buddhist Ethics for a full account.

The vows you take during an initiation are vows, they are not the actual samaya.


Of course they are.

The actual samaya is the connection you make with the teacher by receiving initiation, the vows are a tool that enables the disciple to progress on that path in a meaningful way.


The vows are what maintain that connection. When you break those, you break the connection.

It is not harmful because you made some promise, it's harmful because it not following those rules is in itself harmful once you have made this type of connection.


It's harmful because you have made a promise, and that is the connection; this is why "dam tshig", "solemn word" is how Tibetans translate the term samaya. There is no mystical basis for samaya. It is premised strictly on accepting a set of promises.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby theanarchist » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
theanarchist wrote:It's harmful because you have made a promise, and that is the connection; this is why "dam tshig", "solemn word" is how Tibetans translate the term samaya. There is no mystical basis for samaya. It is premised strictly on accepting a set of promises.



No, it's not harmful because you have made a promise. It is harmful because in the initiation you made that special connection. If you would make the same promises outside of an initiation it would not have those consequences like for example vajra hell if you start to go against that teacher.

That's why you call that person vajra-master and root guru and it workes markedly differently than the connection you have with a sutra-mahayana teacher, for example in zen.

There definitely is a "mystical" basis for samaya. (that's why it's called SECRET mantra vajrayana) Without it there would be no samaya, nothing secret, along with no potential for "liberation in one lifetime" or "vajra hell". A simple broken vow will not get you to the lowest realm possible, it's nowhere near potent enough for such a result.

Maybe so far the "secret" bit in secret mantra vajrayana eluded you ;)
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby Norwegian » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:50 pm

theanarchist,

Maybe you should start citing sources for your claims.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:14 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
theanarchist wrote:It's harmful because you have made a promise, and that is the connection; this is why "dam tshig", "solemn word" is how Tibetans translate the term samaya. There is no mystical basis for samaya. It is premised strictly on accepting a set of promises.



No, it's not harmful because you have made a promise. It is harmful because in the initiation you made that special connection.


That special connection is nothing more than the dependent origination you create with that teacher. You cannot take those promises outside of empowerment at all.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby reddust » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:02 pm

Sayama to me seems like a promise, vow, or bonding. I did a little search and pulled up Berzin again. Common Bonding practice.

I need to get into my big books as well, you know for literal support. This has peaked my curiosity. I have met many teachers, only a few felt like I had a connection (I felt as if I knew them), either deep love, intense curiosity, loyalty, admiration, which has continued to this day even though I may not see these teachers again. I felt this way about certain Dharma students as well, especially when I first started. That felt like a bond as well. Taking the teachings, promising to respect the teachings, the teacher, you know, the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, Guru, yidam, and Dakini...that seems like Samaya to me as well.

I think this all is psychic, you know, it happens in the mind of the student, nothing magical unless you want it to be :namaste:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:That special connection is nothing more than the dependent origination you create with that teacher. You cannot take those promises outside of empowerment at all.

I've often wondered what exactly is going on during an empowerment. I don't see how saying this special connection is the dependent origination created with that teacher really explains anything. Could you elaborate?
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:38 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:That special connection is nothing more than the dependent origination you create with that teacher. You cannot take those promises outside of empowerment at all.

I've often wondered what exactly is going on during an empowerment. I don't see how saying this special connection is the dependent origination created with that teacher really explains anything. Could you elaborate?



You have five aggregates; these are the cause. The teacher arranges their connection to the five buddhas, the result, through the empowerment. If you don't attain buddhahood during the empowerment, then you have a path to follow.

Most people do not understand that abhisheka is primarily a method of attaining buddhahood, and only secondarily, an introduction to a path.

When we talk about dependent origination, there are five: outer, inner, secret, ultimate and sucheness. If you really want to understand this, then you should go and study Lamdre with the Sakyapas.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:33 am

Malcolm wrote:You have five aggregates; these are the cause. The teacher arranges their connection to the five buddhas, the result, through the empowerment. If you don't attain buddhahood during the empowerment, then you have a path to follow.

OK, thanks. How does the teacher arrange this connection?
Malcolm wrote:When we talk about dependent origination, there are five: outer, inner, secret, ultimate and sucheness.

Do these correspond to the aggregates and Buddhas?
Malcolm wrote:If you really want to understand this, then you should go and study Lamdre with the Sakyapas.

OK, is there a convenient reference in English to get started?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby theanarchist » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:55 am

dzogchungpa wrote:I've often wondered what exactly is going on during an empowerment. I don't see how saying this special connection is the dependent origination created with that teacher really explains anything. Could you elaborate?



Well, after the first initiation I ever took (was Guru Rinpoche, given by Chimed Rigdzin Rinpoche) I was pretty much zapped out of my everyday confused state of mind and habitual worries for something like three days. Actually, thinking back, I was running around pretty stoned, but in a high functional way, within a few hours I got myself a new job without any difficulties. Without even much thinking, I just did it. That was probably the best time of my life.

If I learned anything from that experience it is that vajrayana is very much the real thing.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby theanarchist » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:08 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:You have five aggregates; these are the cause. The teacher arranges their connection to the five buddhas, the result, through the empowerment. If you don't attain buddhahood during the empowerment, then you have a path to follow.

OK, thanks. How does the teacher arrange this connection?



My guess is that the teacher, who abides in a direct experience of emptiness nature of all phenomenon (and the notion of him/her and disciples as seperated entities no longer existant in his/her mind) in the ceremony just touches and activates that experience in you.

My experience with some lamas is that they can even archieve full blown telepathic abilities and I think that is a result of the realisation of emptiness nature. I have first hand experience of this ability with the late Nyoshul Khenpo and later another, old disciples confirmed it, saying that this was pretty much an everyday occurence around him.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Postby theanarchist » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:13 am

Malcolm wrote:
That special connection is nothing more than the dependent origination you create with that teacher. You cannot take those promises outside of empowerment at all.


Of course not. Without the empowerment itself, there is nothing to promise and nothing to hold.
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