is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra brother

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is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra brother

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:09 pm

does it constitute a samaya breach if you are rude, disrespectful, and a hypocrite and mean to your vajra brother or sister? im having this trouble with one relationship where my vajra brother does as he will and doesnt care about me or if hes causing me harm and also believes himself to be superior practitioner even though hes actions speak otherwise. and is it so that whoever has taken refuge earlier than the other is so to speak an ''elder'' and should be respected?
Last edited by Jikan on Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: cleaned up title of thread
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:53 pm

no one ? any thoughts ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:10 pm

Not sure about the elder thing, but being jerks to each other is a samaya breach as far as I know. It can also get out of hand if you make excuses for your need to be a jerk by saying you're just being a no-nonsense tell-it-like-it-is kind of guy. Very common.
Last edited by padma norbu on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:19 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:does it constitute a samaya breach if you are rude, disrespectful, and a hypocrite and mean to your vajra brother or sister?

I really hope not. :smile:
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:23 pm

well basically my friend is acting like his my boss or master, very rude and unkind, and not as a dharma friend or vajra brother.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby Ayu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:34 pm

I would try to avoid such a "boss". :smile:
What ever makes you angry, it is not worth bothering - in most of the cases.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby futerko » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:08 pm

At the risk of being blunt KZ, you do seem very eager and you have a lot of questions. Is it possible that is affecting how he relates to you?
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:19 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:does it constitute a samaya breach if you are rude, disrespectful, and a hypocrite and mean to your vajra brother or sister? im having this trouble with one relationship where my vajra brother does as he will and doesnt care about me or if hes causing me harm and also believes himself to be superior practitioner even though hes actions speak otherwise. and is it so that whoever has taken refuge earlier than the other is so to speak an ''elder'' and should be respected?


Don't worry yourself, theres lots of practices you can do. Bringing it into your meditation and actively contemplating how you can better serve that person may help with that relationship, maybe giving him plenty of space will help for a while. Vajra relationships are for a very long time.
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby montana » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:42 pm

It is a "breach", it is even more serious if done during celebrations or teachings in general.

BUT, and it's a big but, lol, there are exceptions when it is not a breach at all.
The exceptions and the breach are really his problem though.

FYI. I had to read the title 3 times in dismay because if you speed read it reads,... something else.
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby Alfredo » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:09 am

Can be repaired if you buy him a Vajra Beer.
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:15 am

Alfredo wrote:Can be repaired if you buy him a Vajra Beer.




:cheers:
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:32 am

(3) Because of anger, faulting our vajra brothers or sisters

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html
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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby practitioner » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:38 am

Konchog1 wrote:
(3) Because of anger, faulting our vajra brothers or sisters

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html


Yes, but of course we must be very careful, if we spend too much energy worrying about which of our vajra siblings are breaking their samayas it can be a fine line before we end up breaking our own.
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby Adamantine » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:33 am

montana wrote:FYI. I had to read the title 3 times in dismay because if you speed read it reads,... something else.


:rolling: It is unfortunate, the proximity of a couple words. . .
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:35 am

i dont know what you read. must not be so good :thinking:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby Punya » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:15 am

Returning to the OP, it sounds like a great opportunity to me. The kind of situation where you might normally react but have a very big reason not to.

I've found over the years that I can get along with the vast majority of people given time ie once I get to know them better, even if initial impressions aren't that good. You could consider that you don't have the whole story, it's only your perception of him at this time. Also, it seems to me that many people who big note themselves lack confidence so it's a kind of defence mechanism. Then there's the give the victory to them idea. Why does it matter to you that he thinks he's superior?
Unless the inner forces of negative emotions are conquered
Strife with outer enemies will never end.
~Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby muni » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:35 am

:namaste: It seems to me that harming and suffering are same. That is why we should rely directly on a spiritual friend/teacher who then learns us to be patient and then it is up to us to put this in practice. Very easy to say, and easier not to do...for me.

It looks like our thoughts - about what others do/say - are harming us. ( Buddha and mara)

Even many tantra practicioners are using all as practice, there is also the warning to avoid friends in which compassion fades or turns partial. When compassion fades, we turn miserable. We must look honestly in own mind and see what practice we can do, dare to talk about with our teacher.

Beginner-ender? In nature of mind is no any begin or end or level. In our head are a lot.

I heard few days ago about ignorance, which is not "not having degrees at university" rather it is ignoring our nature like it is.
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:03 am

Punya wrote:Returning to the OP, it sounds like a great opportunity to me. The kind of situation where you might normally react but have a very big reason not to.

I've found over the years that I can get along with the vast majority of people given time ie once I get to know them better, even if initial impressions aren't that good. You could consider that you don't have the whole story, it's only your perception of him at this time. Also, it seems to me that many people who big note themselves lack confidence so it's a kind of defence mechanism. Then there's the give the victory to them idea. Why does it matter to you that he thinks he's superior?


actually ive known him for many years. hes the one who introduced me to buddhism. well there is no point in giving victory to him, hes taking it as granted. it matters cause there is no real communication in this situation. in example this ''fight'' started when i argumented with proof that one person is a fraud and not authentic lama. and as reaction he started shouting at me calling me angrily with different names and then ejecting me from the group conversation and blocking me personally. so there is no option to talk with him.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:40 am

My opinon is that in situations like that, if you cannot be part of the solution, then it is best to not be part of the problem.

If they wish to break their samaya then... but it is not necessary for you to break yours.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: is there a samaya breach if you're a jerk to vajra broth

Postby narraboth » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:39 pm

well, you might need to define 'jerk' :)

according to the commentaries, to 'break' vajra brothers/sisters vow, one has to
1. generate evil thought - a strong dislike or look-down to the person
2. take some kind of actions - with speech or body
3. annoy the person - he or she heard the bad words or got beaten, and he or she felt the uncomfort
4. pass the time limit of regreting - if you regret right after you did it, it's not difficult to recover the vow. The longer it takes for you to regret and confess the harder it can get purified. I remember after one year it's a total break, and after three years without regret or any purification it's hopeless for rescue.

To recover the breach of vajra brother vow, one has to make apology to the certain vajra brother and offer him in ganachakra. Annoying vajra brother at center and confess at home to your buddha status doesn't make much sense.
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