Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

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Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:47 am

Is this the same garuda we see in the Tibetan tradition?

Image
Image

My god, that's terrifying! I wish there was some less cartoonish artwork of Tibetan wrathful deities out there. Does anyone know of any?

I guess that sounds like an odd request, but I don't feel like writing a whole lot of blather to explain my reasons.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby montana » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:53 am

It seems to me that Kagyu images tend to be more lifelike and terrifying.

The paintings and statues are stylized, they sometimes don't even reflect the actual iconography of the deity.

It might be also that you're desensitized. I remember when I was a kid flipping through poster copies of thangkas and having my stomach churn seeing the HYT ones.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:32 am

I know that feeling. Best you can do is just imagine them as terrifying as possible.

Also, it may be just the deities you've seen. Personally, the only wrathful deity that scares me is my yidam.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:39 am

padma norbu wrote:Is this the same garuda we see in the Tibetan tradition?
It certainly is the same Garuda we see in all Buddhist traditions, and that is the same Vishnu (riding on his shoulders) that we see/hear of in Buddhism.

That second statue is incredible. Where was the photo taken?
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:36 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Is this the same garuda we see in the Tibetan tradition?
It certainly is the same Garuda we see in all Buddhist traditions, and that is the same Vishnu (riding on his shoulders) that we see/hear of in Buddhism.

That second statue is incredible. Where was the photo taken?


Pecatu Indah Resort, Bali.

There is a similar wood sculpture as the first on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... TQ:US:1123

This thread was inspired by scouring ebay for a wrathful deity or two.

Question: you can't trust China, right? I let a Yama Dharmaraja pass me by for $27 last night for a few reasons: I don't believe it is the correct picture or I don't believe it is really antique since another ebayer with a different name listed the exact same picture on a Yama Dharmaraja going for $179...
Image
The second reason is that I don't practice Yama Dharmaraja. Maybe it is one of the guardians of Namkhai Norbu's lineage; I don't remember. I just remember hearing something about how the Chinese statues often have some details wrong and they are being sold purely for profit. Obviously, since Tibet is called "China" now, that's not always true, but I didn't feel like making a rash Yama Dharmaraja decision at midnight last night. Also, a third reason: they are probably not filled or filled properly is my guess. A chinese shop in NY had statues with one or two little things rattling around inside them and details were wrong in the mudras, etc.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby Adamantine » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:22 pm

Only an antique statue would have been filled once, and consecrated, but usually the bottoms have been
torn open and looted since once of the standard things to include inside is previous gems, etc as offerings.
Sometimes the bottoms are then put back leaving them closed but empty.

It's not considered appropriate for a practitioner to buy and sell Dharma iconography that's already been
consecrated, so antiques aren't the best way to go. In most cases these objects were looted. And they may
have unhappy Dharmapalas connected to them as a result. A highly realized Lama could help
you purify the object , but don't try to profit from it yourself.

The new statues are never filled and consecrated before they're sold : (unless it's part of some fundraising
for a monastery or something) so it's usually our responsibility to clean the inside well, and find a qualified Lama
to fill it --the central channel and mantra rolls we probably don't have access to or can't make
ourselves. The rest of the items needed may vary according to lineage so I'll hold my tongue : but it's up to
us to procure them. After it's filled properly and sealed, then a qualified master should
consecrate it.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:33 pm

www.potalagate.com

you can find statue filling kits for different statues and for stupa. but i think there is only the basic most commonly known and spread deities, like tara, chenrezig, vajrasattva etc.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:34 pm

as this topic talks about this stuff, i should ask. i have a ksitigarbha bodhisattva statue that is made of bronze and there is no filling, its solid. so should it still be consecrated or blessed or more is it absolutely necessary?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:46 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:as this topic talks about this stuff, i should ask. i have a ksitigarbha bodhisattva statue that is made of bronze and there is no filling, its solid. so should it still be consecrated or blessed or more is it absolutely necessary?


It's supposed to be, otherwise it could bring negativity (so I read before). This is why I went to great pains to find a lama and pester him into filling my green tara statue. Since then, I've had some issues with altar placement since Tara is the only one filled and the rest of my rupas are tsa tsas and a wooden carving of Shakhamuni from Nepal, I think. Tara is biggest and so she is in the center... in front of her is wooden Buddha. And to the sides are the stupas and other solid rupas (like small metal ones which can't be filled)... I assume the ones that are solid aren't bringing me any negativities because it would be weird if I was expected to somehow hollow them out and fill them and I don't imagine they should be sold at all if that was the case.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:57 pm

Adamantine, good advice. I didn't realize they were mostly looted, but there's a 4th reason not to get them.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby Adamantine » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:57 pm

Well, the negativity thing is related to the idea that if a statue is not filled and consecrated then some etheric entity (as opposed to the wisdom being one would request in the consecration) may decide to dwell there. This could be a negative being.

Solid statues seem less likely for this to occur with, but if you A) aren't able to get a statue filled for some period of time then I've been told it is OK to put a little dutsi (the little dutsi pills) inside (tape some in a little zip bag to the inner side) to hold the blessings until you are able to fill it properly and have it consecrated. This advice may be particular to the Nyingma lineage though idk. Also, similarly with the solid statues you could just attach a little on the bottom or bottom back and that would at the very least hold the wisdom blessings (dutsi is powerful stuff).
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:20 pm

where can you get dutsi? and what is it ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby Adamantine » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:22 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:where can you get dutsi? and what is it ?


See this thread: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14358&start=0&hilit=dutsi
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby undefineable » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:41 pm

I cut out a 'photo of a mahakala statue from my copy of "The Essential Chogyam Trungpa" many years ago, and have since kept it near my bed as inspiration, adding an even-'scarier' Yamantaka print-off last year. My refuge vows -along with a couple of unrelated ceremonial 'empowerments' with no further commitments- was from a Kagyu Rinpoche (Akong Tulku in fact :/ :bow: ), but I've never had any teacher or any intention to practice Tantra (which I'd be unable to do) in this lifetime.

Since I'm more 'superstitious' than my "logical" outlook might suggest, I'd be interested to hear anyone's views as to any trouble that this set of 'conditions' may or may not bring, and whether any such might be set aside by setting aside the "iconography".
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby ClearblueSky » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:44 pm

undefineable wrote:I cut out a 'photo of a mahakala statue from my copy of "The Essential Chogyam Trungpa" many years ago, and have since kept it near my bed as inspiration, adding an even-'scarier' Yamantaka print-off last year. My refuge vows -along with a couple of unrelated ceremonial 'empowerments' with no further commitments- was from a Kagyu Rinpoche (Akong Tulku in fact :/ :bow: ), but I've never had any teacher or any intention to practice Tantra (which I'd be unable to do) in this lifetime.

Since I'm more 'superstitious' than my "logical" outlook might suggest, I'd be interested to hear anyone's views as to any trouble that this set of 'conditions' may or may not bring, and whether any such might be set aside by setting aside the "iconography".

There is nothing wrong with hanging up pictures of deities you don't practice, if they inspire faith for you. Just be respectful with the images themselves, don't put them on the floor or hang them at the foot of your bed, etc.
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby undefineable » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:17 pm

Thanks
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:28 pm

padma norbu wrote:
My god, that's terrifying!


One mans terror is another mans comfort.
I don't find those images at all terrifying. :tongue:
I like them, bring em! They make me feel happy and protected.

:rolling:
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:35 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
My god, that's terrifying!


One mans terror is another mans comfort.
I don't find those images at all terrifying. :tongue:
I like them, bring em! They make me feel happy and protected.

:rolling:


Yes, well, that's basically what it's all about. When the baddies got ya down, who can you turn to? That's right: the goody that scares the bajeezus out of the baddy. The extreme fierceness of these bali Garuda statues really helps to convey the sheer power in a way that seems most appropriate (to me, anyway). Compare to this and see if you get the same feeling...
Image
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:50 am

padma norbu wrote:Compare to this and see if you get the same feeling...
Image


...no fear yet... not from that, I like it very much... maybe if a Dr. told me I was really very ill, if I knew I was going to suffer a terrible disease of some kind I would have fear and have to come to terms with it...but none of the Garudas images actually scare me, neither do any of the heavy protectors, or Dorje Drollo, or any of the big black blue ones...the reason being, the nature is love under all the black meteor razor feathers etc...pure compassion, peace, wisdom... :smile:
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Re: Wrathful deity iconography just not terrifying enough

Postby heart » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:22 am

Use your mind, it is capable of constructing all the endless horrors of Samsara. Pictures and statues are fine but nothing comes close to what your own mind can do, just learn the ancient art of visualization.

/magnus
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