Tibetan Myth of Chan

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Paul
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Paul »

zangskar wrote:I thought that a very basic difference between Dzogchen and Zen is that anyone, at least in theory, can take up Zen (nowadays if maybe not historically), while Dzogchen is reserved for those who are already permanently fixed in mindfulness and do not have any attachment to thoughts, in other words generally only to people who spent years practising other things?
No, not at all. Dzogchen is for anyone who wants to practice it, although it requires direct introduction from an authorised teacher. It is especially well suited to modern times.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
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Astus
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

Jinzang wrote:I can't claim to be expert in dzogchen (far from it.) But the way I remember Khandro Rinpoche explaining the issue is that while other paths (she specifically said mahamudra) teach that buddha nature is inherent in all beings, dzogchen teaches that the buddha qualities (such as omniscience) are inherent in all beings.
Buddha-nature includes the buddha qualities as explained in detail in the Ratnagotravibhaga and other works.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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LastLegend
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by LastLegend »

Namdrol wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Dzogchen and Chan are two completely different systems of teachings. However, all the teachings that Dzogchen teaches, Chan also teaches.
No, since the basis is different, than path is different, and since the path is different, the result is different.
Both will lead to Buddhahood. The only the difference is the time it takes to become Buddha.
It’s eye blinking.
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LastLegend
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by LastLegend »

One of the philosophies in relation to Dzogchen would be the Bardo States, where one will meet the lights, sounds and rays as object or not.
So the philosophy behind is about the object in its clear or defiled state. Clear and Lhun drub, in the Natural State and dirty in the mind of dualistic karma.
There must be a medium there that assists with the process such as lights from Buddha. Or you see the Guru as Buddha?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

LastLegend wrote:Both will lead to Buddhahood. The only the difference is the time it takes to become Buddha.
How so? Chan is the school of sudden enlightenment (not gradual development on the bodhisattva path), and the Pure Land path has 100% guaranteed buddhahood in one lifetime.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
zangskar
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by zangskar »

Paul wrote:
zangskar wrote:I thought that a very basic difference between Dzogchen and Zen is that anyone, at least in theory, can take up Zen (nowadays if maybe not historically), while Dzogchen is reserved for those who are already permanently fixed in mindfulness and do not have any attachment to thoughts, in other words generally only to people who spent years practising other things?
No, not at all. Dzogchen is for anyone who wants to practice it, although it requires direct introduction from an authorised teacher. It is especially well suited to modern times.
Thanks for the answers Lhugpa and Paul. Was it always like this; that it was taught to everyone?
Best wishes
Lars
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Astus
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

Separate discussion of Pure Land and Bodhisattvas moved.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Caz
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Caz »

Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Both will lead to Buddhahood. The only the difference is the time it takes to become Buddha.
How so? Chan is the school of sudden enlightenment (not gradual development on the bodhisattva path), and the Pure Land path has 100% guaranteed buddhahood in one lifetime.
Sudden Enlightenment or Sudden Liberation ? Full enlightenment isnt sudden. Liberation could be though...
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

Caz wrote:Sudden Enlightenment or Sudden Liberation ? Full enlightenment isnt sudden. Liberation could be though...
There are different views about this ranging from minimal (entry to the level of faith, roughly identical to entry to the path of accumulation) to maximal (perfect buddhahood). It depends on what teacher/lineage/school you ask.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mariusz
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Mariusz »

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The main point behind lhundrup is practical, it is not theoretical or abstract. It has to do with how Dzogchen is practiced.
Then it'd good if you could give it a definition. As a start, I bring here one.
Spontaneous presence/accomplishment is an inherent aspect of buddha-mind, and means the aware side and the buddha qualities.
As such, the same teaching is found not only in Chan but in all East Asian schools following the buddha-mind teachings as found in the treatise "Awakening Mahayana Faith" and other works.
I don't think Zen has the similar practical jargon related to Lhundrub (Spontaneous presence). As I know Zen has not even the concept of the Bardo of Dharmata (Chönyid bardo), let alone instructions how actualise its spontaneously accomplished "visions" (the 4 visions; wylie: snang ba bzhi). Nevertheless, it is very easy to take carelessly sentences from Madhyamaka/Yogacara as a Zen "slang" or even as a Dzogchen "slang" for the practice.
Caz
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Caz »

Astus wrote:
Caz wrote:Sudden Enlightenment or Sudden Liberation ? Full enlightenment isnt sudden. Liberation could be though...
There are different views about this ranging from minimal (entry to the level of faith, roughly identical to entry to the path of accumulation) to maximal (perfect buddhahood). It depends on what teacher/lineage/school you ask.
I could understand Sudden Liberation in cutting the bonds of Samsara once Emptiness is realized but Buddhahood is progressive even Bodhisattvas still have subtle imprints of delusion and it takes time after theyre liberation to wipe these from the mind. So how would it be possible to have sudden Enlightenment ? Liberation and Enlightenment arent interchangable yet Ive seen a fair few people mistake them for being so, How is this distinction made in the Chan school ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

Mariusz wrote:I don't think Zen has the similar practical jargon related to Lhundrub (Spontaneous presence). As I know Zen has not even the concept of the Bardo of Dharmata (Chönyid bardo), let alone instructions how actualise its spontaneously accomplished "visions" (the 4 visions; wylie: snang ba bzhi). Nevertheless, it is very easy to take carelessly sentences from Madhyamaka/Yogacara as a Zen "slang" or even as a Dzogchen "slang" for the practice.
It doesn't. I haven't seen any Zen work dealing with intermediate state practices, nor similar practice with lights, sounds, deities, etc. And while there is the understanding that buddha-mind has the perfect qualities inherently, it is not conceived of in tantric images.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

Caz wrote:I could understand Sudden Liberation in cutting the bonds of Samsara once Emptiness is realized but Buddhahood is progressive even Bodhisattvas still have subtle imprints of delusion and it takes time after theyre liberation to wipe these from the mind. So how would it be possible to have sudden Enlightenment ? Liberation and Enlightenment arent interchangable yet Ive seen a fair few people mistake them for being so, How is this distinction made in the Chan school ?
Bodhisattvas go through stages, yes. But according to Chan that is a lower understanding, and Chan teaches the Sudden and Perfect Vehicle where there is sudden enlightenment to buddhahood.

Here are Zongmi's categories: 1) the teaching of men and gods, 2) the teachings of the Hinayana, 3) the teaching of phenomenal appearances, 4) the teaching of the negation of phenomenal appearances and 5) the teaching that reveals the true nature of phenomena (intrinsic enlightenment)

But Zongmi was not really the advocate of sudden complete enlightenment, and those who were did not really care about setting up elaborate scholastic systems.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mariusz
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Mariusz »

Astus wrote:
Mariusz wrote:I don't think Zen has the similar practical jargon related to Lhundrub (Spontaneous presence). As I know Zen has not even the concept of the Bardo of Dharmata (Chönyid bardo), let alone instructions how actualise its spontaneously accomplished "visions" (the 4 visions; wylie: snang ba bzhi). Nevertheless, it is very easy to take carelessly sentences from Madhyamaka/Yogacara as a Zen "slang" or even as a Dzogchen "slang" for the practice.
It doesn't. I haven't seen any Zen work dealing with intermediate state practices, nor similar practice with lights, sounds, deities, etc. And while there is the understanding that buddha-mind has the perfect qualities inherently, it is not conceived of in tantric images.
All irrelevant. The "images" are reference points only and Lhundrub has nothing to do with them. Even tantric so called by you "images" are for the creation stage (kyerim) as a tools only for further direct realization "beyond all images" as I may say. Bardo of Dharmata (Chönyid bardo) is beyond dualism and only after it the dualism subject-object can take place for the state of sentient being in the next state of bardo. If Zen does not deal with these "perfect qualities" it is simply not so complete as Dzogchen. The Perfect Buddhahood is the Complete Buddhahood, not only a "glimpse".
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Astus »

The buddha qualities in Zen is put under the term of function that is the perfect functioning of the six sense spheres in general. There are a few detailed discussions of these functions but it is not really important as one can use them spontaneously once the nature is realised, and such functioning is exemplified in many Zen stories.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote:The buddha qualities in Zen is put under the term of function that is the perfect functioning of the six sense spheres in general. There are a few detailed discussions of these functions but it is not really important as one can use them spontaneously once the nature is realised, and such functioning is exemplified in many Zen stories.

But this is standard sutra (chinese style). Lhun grub is not about buddha qualities per se.

N
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by MalaBeads »

Isn't it possible that sudden enlightenment is only possible because of lhun grub?
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Malcolm »

MalaBeads wrote:Isn't it possible that sudden enlightenment is only possible because of lhun grub?
Dzogchen is not a sudden awakening path. It has no grades, either sudden or gradual since it is the result that is free from a cause.
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

Post by Caz »

Astus wrote:
Caz wrote:I could understand Sudden Liberation in cutting the bonds of Samsara once Emptiness is realized but Buddhahood is progressive even Bodhisattvas still have subtle imprints of delusion and it takes time after theyre liberation to wipe these from the mind. So how would it be possible to have sudden Enlightenment ? Liberation and Enlightenment arent interchangable yet Ive seen a fair few people mistake them for being so, How is this distinction made in the Chan school ?
Bodhisattvas go through stages, yes. But according to Chan that is a lower understanding, and Chan teaches the Sudden and Perfect Vehicle where there is sudden enlightenment to buddhahood.

Here are Zongmi's categories: 1) the teaching of men and gods, 2) the teachings of the Hinayana, 3) the teaching of phenomenal appearances, 4) the teaching of the negation of phenomenal appearances and 5) the teaching that reveals the true nature of phenomena (intrinsic enlightenment)

But Zongmi was not really the advocate of sudden complete enlightenment, and those who were did not really care about setting up elaborate scholastic systems.
But wouldnt one need to first progress through the Bodhisattva stages to reach sudden enlightenment of Buddha ? One cannot be a Buddha without first developing Bodhichitta, This is a prequisite to enlightenment so how can this just suddenly perfectly develop in ones mind stream ? What method is it that is used. It was often said that Dzogchen was Ch'an in disguise so could you please elaborate the 5th catagory of teaching ? :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Tibetan Myth of Chan

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Caz wrote:But wouldnt one need to first progress through the Bodhisattva stages to reach sudden enlightenment of Buddha ? One cannot be a Buddha without first developing Bodhichitta, This is a prequisite to enlightenment so how can this just suddenly perfectly develop in ones mind stream ? What method is it that is used. It was often said that Dzogchen was Ch'an in disguise so could you please elaborate the 5th catagory of teaching ? :namaste:
Here are two brief explanations by Zongmi (tr. by Ven. Huifeng):

"If one suddenly realizes that the essence of one's own mind is originally pure, solitary and without defilements, itself originally endowed with the nature of undefiled wisdom, that this very mind is buddha, absolutely no difference, and thus cultivates based on that, this is the supreme unsurpassed Chan, also named the pure Chan of the Tathagatas, also named the Single Act Samadhi, also named the Suchness Samadhi. This is the fundament of all samadhis."
(CBETA, T48, no. 2015, p. 399, b16-20)

"Direct (sudden) realization of the essential purity of ones own mind, originally without defilements, itself endowed with the influx-free (non-afflicted) gnosis - this mind is Buddha, ultimate with nothing else beyond - cultivating in this manner, is the Supreme Vehicle Dhyana. It is also known as the Pure Dhyana of the Tathagatas."
(CBETA, X64, no. 1276, p. 808, c9-15 // Z 2:18, p. 494, c7-13 // R113, p. 988, a7-13)

And a fancy explanation from the Linji-lu (tr. Sasaki, p. 17):

"Outside mind there’s no dharma, nor is there anything to be gained within it. What are you seeking? Everywhere you say, ‘There’s something to practice, something to obtain.’ Make no mistake! Even if there were something to be gained by practice, it would be nothing but birth-and-death karma. You say, ‘The six pāramitās and the ten thousand [virtuous] actions are all to be practiced.’ As I see it, all this is just making karma. Seeking buddha and seeking dharma are only making hell-karma. Seeking bodhisattvahood is also making karma; reading the sutras and studying the teachings are also making karma. Buddhas and patriarchs are people with nothing to do. Therefore, [for them] activity and the defiling passions and also nonactivity and passionlessness are ‘pure’ karma.
There are a bunch of blind shavepates who, having stuffed themselves with food, sit down to meditate and practice contemplation. Arresting the flow of thought they don’t let it rise; they hate noise and seek stillness. This is the method of the heretics. A patriarch said, ‘If you stop the mind to look at stillness, arouse the mind to illumine outside, control the mind to clarify inside, concentrate the mind to enter samādhi—all such [practices] as these are artificial striving.’
This very you, the man who right now is thus listening to my discourse, how is he to be cultivated, to be enlightened, to be adorned? He is not one to be cultivated, he is not one to be adorned. But if you let him do the adorning, then everything would be adorned. Don’t be mistaken!
Followers of the Way, you seize upon words from the mouths of those old masters and take them to be the true Way. You think, ‘These good teachers are wonderful, and I, simple-minded fellow that I am, don’t dare measure such old worthies.’ Blind idiots! You go through your entire life holding such views, betraying your own two eyes. Trembling with fright, like donkeys on an icy path, [you say to yourselves,] ‘I don’t dare disparage these good teachers for fear of making karma with my mouth!’"
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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