Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby kirtu » Sun May 19, 2013 3:52 pm

Namgyal wrote:
kirtu wrote:...contrary to Shakyamuni Buddha's Dharma? What was it?

'As practitioners on the path of liberation we take refuge in the Four Jewels...'

http://www.olmoling.org/contents/olmo_ling_refuge_tree


As practitioners on the path of liberation we take refuge in the Four Jewels, the embodiments of awakening: Our teachers, the Buddha or our true nature that is pure and awake, the wisdom teachings or Dharma, and the community of compassionate beings who support us on this path.


So they mention that they take refuge in the lamas, Buddhas, Dharma and Sangha, In fact this is the exact public refuge formula used in Nyingma and in Sakya internally (after one has taken a HYT empowerment). In various Kagyu and Nyingma refuge formulas they speak of the six refuges, etc.

The Bon at least taken refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha as far as I have seen, they just use the Nyingma refuge formula (or perhaps the Bon would say that the Nyingma use the Bon refuge formula).

That Bon do not want to say that they are Buddhist is up to them. However they do not appear to be contrary to Buddhist Dharma in the least.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4569
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Namgyal » Sun May 19, 2013 4:14 pm

If syncretistic American practitioners wish to refer to Shenrab Miwoche as 'Buddha', thats up to them, likewise if folk wish to take refuge in the Four Jewels, Ten Jewels or whatever, that is also their right. However the lineages are categorically not the same, one comes from a fully enlightened Buddha from India, and the other comes from a rishi from Iran. I do not dispute that the teachings are remarkably similar, nor that a few enlightened Buddhist masters of the past were able to study Bon, but that does not change the fact that the objects of refuge in the two religions are different.
:namaste:
Namgyal
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:13 pm

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 19, 2013 4:31 pm

H. H. the Dalai Lama's recognition of Bon as the native religion of Tibet and one of its five core spiritual traditions is an important acknowledgement of Bon's significant role in Tibetan history and current affairs.
http://www.bonfoundation.org/aboutbon.html
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
 
Posts: 9979
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 19, 2013 4:40 pm

Namgyal wrote: However the lineages are categorically not the same, one comes from a fully enlightened Buddha from India, and the other comes from a rishi from Iran.
So where does Vajrayana Buddhism fit into this narrow scheme of things? I mean, I practice in the Karma Kagyu lineage and they claim that the progenitor of the lineage is Vajradhara. Where exactly did Buddha Sakyamuni mention anything about him?

But, actually, to be 100% fair, I have to clarify a mistake I made earlier about Bon being a tradition of Buddhism. In a wider sense, if one takes Buddhism to refer to a tradition based on the teachings and practice of an enlightened being (a Buddha), then strictly speaking, Bon is a Buddhist tradition. If, though, when we say Buddhism we mean traceable back to Shakyamuni Buddha, then obviously Bon is not Buddhist (but then neither is...)

This fact though, does not mean that Bon is not Dharma.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
 
Posts: 9979
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun May 19, 2013 5:06 pm

Malcolm changed his view since back on esangha, he used to think similar to Namgyal, and argue that Bon was not where you did your refuge of the three jewels becasue Shakyamuni Buddha wasn't one of the jewels, an entirely different Buddha is used in Bon. Malcolm would say you violate your refuge vows, however, since that time he changed this way of thinking. Especially after hearing Dzogchen teachings more and more (listening to CHNNR) this "view" that we are not to "discriminate" against Bon, or any other religion comes into play, also this "discrimination" that the nature of mind is somehow different because of the "school" gets dropped.

On a deeper level, DI (Direct Intoduction) is DI, whether it is in Bon or in Nyingmapa or within Dzogchen Community. Nobody has the registered trademark, with "all rights reserved" for offering Direct Introduction to the nature of mind, nor are all the ways of doing this the same.

When I met Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche he spontaneously gave me DI, this is what he did with me. He didn't say "you go get a mandala offering plate and I'll show you how to use it according to "my tradition", or you go get a picture of a Bon refuge tree and learn all the characters and make an elaborate visualization that we use in "my tradition", nor did he say practice these yidams which are all from Bon, from "my tradition". Nothing like that at all, he just told me (in what maybe interpreted as being rather "abstract") for me to get a holographic image for him, which wasn't so easy to find in the small country town where he was teaching, then when I cam back with the image and offered it to him, he immediately gave me DI with that image, although afterward he bonked me on the head with all the pechas which contained all the major lineages yidams from Bon, but the empowerment "all in one vase" was not the main point, the point was DI and it didn't have some teacher in this hologram, it was on the cover of a romance novel! He said: "Now you see it, now you don't".

He knew that someday I would be able to understand what he was doing, why he did everything that way, once again, he used a hologram on the cover of a romance novel to give DI!

There was no proliferation of "ideas" on this masters part from the very beginning. The "story" is a little longer, but the gist is, this master did the same thing CHNNR does, he didn't ask me to do anything except get him a hologram, he didn't ask me to get any particular kind, it didn't matter, or follow any "dogma" with many words, he just simply gave DI. He even didn't tell me what to practice afterwards, he just gave DI...thank you for being you Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche!

The nature of mind in Bon & the nature of mind in Dzogchen Nyingma, and the nature of mind in Dzogchen Community, this "nature" is the same.
User avatar
T. Chokyi
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:19 am

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Namgyal » Sun May 19, 2013 5:09 pm

H. H. the Dalai Lama's recognition of Bon as the native religion of Tibet and one of its five core spiritual traditions is an important acknowledgement of Bon's significant role in Tibetan history and current affairs.

The first religious text that I ever studied was 'The Nine Ways of Bon', and for years I considered myself a student of Bon. However, it was simply not available thirty years ago, so instead (being Scottish) I took refuge in the Karma-Kagyu tradition. These days Bon is accessible, but not to me, because I have already taken an oath to follow my Teacher, Sakyamuni, and in my view one cannot serve two masters. I have the greatest possible respect for Bon and in no sense do I consider it to be an inferior spiritual vehicle.
:namaste:
Namgyal
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:13 pm

pose do they serve?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Namgyal wrote:The first religious text that I ever studied was 'The Nine Ways of Bon', and for years I considered myself a student of Bon. However, it was simply not available thirty years ago, so instead (being Scottish) I took refuge in the Karma-Kagyu tradition. These days Bon is accessible, but not to me, because I have already taken an oath to follow my Teacher, Sakyamuni, and in my view one cannot serve two masters. I have the greatest possible respect for Bon and in no sense do I consider it to be an inferior spiritual vehicle.
:namaste:
So why are you carrying on like a two bob watch? It's not for you? It's not for you! But grand sweeping statements like the one at the beginning of the thread? What purpose do they serve? :?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
 
Posts: 9979
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Lhasa » Sun May 19, 2013 5:33 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:Malcolm changed his view since back on esangha, he used to think similar to Namgyal, and argue that Bon was not where you did your refuge of the three jewels becasue Shakyamuni Buddha wasn't one of the jewels, an entirely different Buddha is used in Bon. Malcolm would say you violate your refuge vows, however, since that time he changed this way of thinking. Especially after hearing Dzogchen teachings more and more (listening to CHNNR) this "view" that we are not to "discriminate" against Bon, or any other religion comes into play, also this "discrimination" that the nature of mind is somehow different because of the "school" gets dropped.

On a deeper level, DI (Direct Intoduction) is DI, whether it is in Bon or in Nyingmapa or within Dzogchen Community. Nobody has the registered trademark, with "all rights reserved" for offering Direct Introduction to the nature of mind, nor are all the ways of doing this the same.

When I met Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche he spontaneously gave me DI, this is what he did with me. He didn't say "you go get a mandala offering plate and I'll show you how to use it according to "my tradition", or you go get a picture of a Bon refuge tree and learn all the characters and make an elaborate visualization that we use in "my tradition", nor did he say practice these yidams which are all from Bon, from "my tradition". Nothing like that at all, he just told me (in what maybe interpreted as being rather "abstract") for me to get a holographic image for him, which wasn't so easy to find in the small country town where he was teaching, then when I cam back with the image and offered it to him, he immediately gave me DI with that image, although afterward he bonked me on the head with all the pechas which contained all the major lineages yidams from Bon, but the empowerment "all in one vase" was not the main point, the point was DI and it didn't have some teacher in this hologram, it was on the cover of a romance novel! He said: "Now you see it, now you don't".

He knew that someday I would be able to understand what he was doing, why he did everything that way, once again, he used a hologram on the cover of a romance novel to give DI!

There was no proliferation of "ideas" on this masters part from the very beginning. The "story" is a little longer, but the gist is, this master did the same thing CHNNR does, he didn't ask me to do anything except get him a hologram, he didn't ask me to get any particular kind, it didn't matter, or follow any "dogma" with many words, he just simply gave DI. He even didn't tell me what to practice afterwards, he just gave DI...thank you for being you Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche!

The nature of mind in Bon & the nature of mind in Dzogchen Nyingma, and the nature of mind in Dzogchen Community, this "nature" is the same.


What a fantastic experience! :good: :good: :good:
Lhasa
 
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Namgyal » Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So why are you carrying on like a two bob watch? It's not for you? It's not for you! But grand sweeping statements like the one at the beginning of the thread? What purpose do they serve? :?

The gentleman in the earlier thread discussed combining Bon with Buddhism. My argument is that these traditions are incompatible because they have different objects of refuge. My purpose is therefore to suggest that he choose either one or the other. In my view both are equally excellent.
:namaste:
Namgyal
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:13 pm

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun May 19, 2013 6:01 pm

Heh, the "no" argument here is remarkably similar to all the anti-Vajrayana and Mahayana arguments i've seen made by Theravedins.

Even the Berzin article you linked points out that the same argument has been used to refute Mahayana sutra...
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sun May 19, 2013 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2746
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Konchog1 » Sun May 19, 2013 11:00 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:That's an Ad Hominem. You're talking about him, but haven't discussed his quote.

As he said, we shouldn't react to other views out of attachment or hostility, but instead honestly debate and consider both sides' arguments.


Well, he doesn't really make a logical argument in those quotes, he just makes absolute statements as if they are fact, and whether one accepts or rejects them really depends on how much faith one puts in the one making the statements, their omniscience or their delusion. So it does come down to talking about him in the end. I don't have much faith in the person based on clear historical records of their words and actions, so it is a waste of time for me to discuss their point of view.
"There are some people who claim to be practitioners and scholars yet see nothing wrong in dabbling in Bon or barbarian dharma to curry favour with others, gain a big following, or help themselves out when they meet with difficulties. They are being two-faced about taking refuge; they have evicted taking refuge from their mind-streams and cast themselves out of the ranks of Buddhists.

Some people say, 'A bit of Buddhism, a bit of Bon,' but these is no reason why the Bon teachers, their dharma or their adherents should be worthy enough to be refuges; the three do not have all the required qualities, that is, having abandoned all faults, and so forth. Their dharma is not even a means of reducing delusion. They claim their sangha is based on the pratimoksha vow but their vows do not have the lineage.

Bon is not a refuge for Buddhists; it is not worthy of being a refuge. All the same, Buddhists and Bonpos say things to each other out of attachment or hostility, and this hardly makes for honest debate. It vital that you should know the sources of the Bon religion. [such as reading Tukaen Dharmavajra's The Mirror on Eloquence]"

-Liberation in the Palm of your Hand pg. 415
Well, my understanding of his quote is 'he who chases two rabbits attains neither'. He saw Bon and Buddhism as separate unrelated religions, so his view is the same as a Christan Priest telling his followers to not to recite mantra in the church.

BUT, Bon and Buddhism are not unrelated. Following Phabongkha's advice would mean no prayer flags, no dances (Cham), and other carryovers. Obviously, these things are not Buddhist in and of themselves, but I think that they are useful additions.

Honestly, I think that Phabongkha has a point. But I think he goes too far.

I don't know enough about Dzogchen to have an opinion about it.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Mon May 20, 2013 1:07 am

I have to agree; its not an ad hominem to say Pabongka Rinpoche was anti-rime, anti-nonsectarian, etc. He not even necessarily a slander--he would likely characterize himself as such. It's an accurate generalization of his view, and it's also a legitimate reason to dismiss his statements if you adhere to the (many) rime lamas who oppose this opinion.

In general on this issue, I imagine many teachers would tell you this: if it conforms with the four seals, it is Buddhism. If your view has strayed in any way from that, you have gone into eternalist or nihilist extremes.

Most so-called dharma students, myself included, have absolutely no correct view. No bodhicitta. No renunciation. No view. We're either materialist nihilists or materialist eternalists, so we might as well be practicing the most horrifically negative paths anyway. I bet a Bonpo with the correct view is a far greater benefit to beings than somebody who has all the right transmissions and superficialities and has no view.

Plus (I believe) another great Lama who practiced/adhered to many Bon teachings was Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he may have even revealed Bon termas that are now part of the Shambala teachings.
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Mon May 20, 2013 1:20 am

Moreover, Caz, in response to your "Why would you take inferior refuge" question...correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most Bonpos would see their refuge as either synonymous or equivalent to the triratna. Put in Buddhist terms, I believe Bon is (this is what I've read) based on the wheel-turning of an ancient Buddha who preceeds Sakyamuni.

Wondering why they take "inferior" refuge is like saying that Theravada practitioners are inferior, selfish, etc. When they are clearly raised in causes and conditions that funnel them inevitably into being Theravada buddhists, just as we were funneled into another path. Judging inferior or superior smacks of chauvinism and a lack of imagining other peoples realities; it's a profound form of mind-training to meditate on the vast view of the Mahayana and vast means of the Vajrayana, and to think of them as unexcelled in every way. To use that mind-training to judge paths with superficial differences really freaks me out.

A few small changes in the experiences I've had an I could have become (or briefly was) a practicing Daoist priest, atheist drag queen, or mormon Missionary. .I like to think I've found the best path for me, the greatest vehicle, but I have no correct understanding of it anyway so who knows. I've been stupid enough times to have some hesitance in judging other paths and practitioners.

Plus I want that wealth of diversity that comes from embracing the good qualities and realization of masters from Zen, Daoist, Hindu, Sufi, Voodoo, etc. traditions.
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Mon May 20, 2013 1:28 am

One final, perhaps minor question:

Isn't the jewel of Buddha the awakened, awakening, undeceiving and stainless ultimate refuge that is the nature of the mind? Not the specific Nirmanakaya emanation who we happen to have the shred of merit to know about, but the Big Buddha (Dharmadhatu? I still do not understand this massive concept) that is pervasively the space in which all sentient beings' phenomena plays.
Last edited by Nilasarasvati on Mon May 20, 2013 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Konchog1 » Mon May 20, 2013 1:50 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:One final, perhaps minor question:

Isn't the jewel of Buddha the awakened, awakening, undeceiving and stainless ultimate refuge that is the nature of the mind? Not the specific Nirmanakaya emanation who we happen to have the shred of merit to know about, but the Big Buddha (Dharmadhatu? I still do not understand this massive concept) that is pervasively the space in which all sentient beings' phenomena plays.
Both. Thangtong Gyalpo's refuge prayer is addressed to the Three Jewels, Three Roots, and the Dharmakaya.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Adamantine » Mon May 20, 2013 4:16 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:Plus I want that wealth of diversity that comes from embracing the good qualities and realization of masters from Zen, Daoist, Hindu, Sufi, Voodoo, etc. traditions.



As long as it's just embracing the good qualities: I get
freaked out a bit myself by practices of other traditions
that involve harming other beings in the idea it will
bring benefit: such as sacrifices in the ancient Vedic tradition, the ancient
black Bon which is what Guru Rinpoche and the King suppressed,
ancient Mayan rites as well as the contemporary practices of
some misguided Hindus and Voodoo practitioners -- among others. Certainly
these type of practices become contrary to Dharma, adharma.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2933
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Caz » Mon May 20, 2013 9:02 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:Moreover, Caz, in response to your "Why would you take inferior refuge" question...correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most Bonpos would see their refuge as either synonymous or equivalent to the triratna. Put in Buddhist terms, I believe Bon is (this is what I've read) based on the wheel-turning of an ancient Buddha who preceeds Sakyamuni.

Wondering why they take "inferior" refuge is like saying that Theravada practitioners are inferior, selfish, etc. When they are clearly raised in causes and conditions that funnel them inevitably into being Theravada buddhists, just as we were funneled into another path. Judging inferior or superior smacks of chauvinism and a lack of imagining other peoples realities; it's a profound form of mind-training to meditate on the vast view of the Mahayana and vast means of the Vajrayana, and to think of them as unexcelled in every way. To use that mind-training to judge paths with superficial differences really freaks me out.

A few small changes in the experiences I've had an I could have become (or briefly was) a practicing Daoist priest, atheist drag queen, or mormon Missionary. .I like to think I've found the best path for me, the greatest vehicle, but I have no correct understanding of it anyway so who knows. I've been stupid enough times to have some hesitance in judging other paths and practitioners.

Plus I want that wealth of diversity that comes from embracing the good qualities and realization of masters from Zen, Daoist, Hindu, Sufi, Voodoo, etc. traditions.


Certainly Modern Bon is very similar to some forms of Buddhism today but that still doesn't make its refuge worthy. As you know at every age of the turning of Dharma the Dharma of the previous age becomes extinct and is renewed again by the Tathagata in this case Shakyamuni Buddha so for one to suggest that there is a ancient Buddha who's Dharma has been preserved in the form of the Bon religion is nonsense. Buddhist Refuge comes from Buddha you cannot call yourself a Buddhist if your refuge is also placed within Bon as well that's taking eclecticism way to far.

Sure Padmasambhava may have acted skilfully and suppressed the more evil practices that existed within Bon at one point but even with A fully accomplished being such as Padmasambhava cannot produce a existent authentic refuge lineage from where there is none.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Caz
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Namgyal » Mon May 20, 2013 10:53 am

Caz wrote:As you know at every age of the turning of Dharma the Dharma of the previous age becomes extinct and is renewed again by the Tathagata in this case Shakyamuni Buddha so for one to suggest that there is a ancient Buddha who's Dharma has been preserved in the form of the Bon religion is nonsense.

Bon Dzogchen is quite possibly from the previous world, along with yoga and chi-gung.
Not everything is destroyed at the end of an age.
Image
Namgyal
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:13 pm

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby MalaBeads » Mon May 20, 2013 3:19 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:Malcolm changed his view since back on esangha, he used to think similar to Namgyal, and argue that Bon was not where you did your refuge of the three jewels becasue Shakyamuni Buddha wasn't one of the jewels, an entirely different Buddha is used in Bon. Malcolm would say you violate your refuge vows, however, since that time he changed this way of thinking. Especially after hearing Dzogchen teachings more and more (listening to CHNNR) this "view" that we are not to "discriminate" against Bon, or any other religion comes into play, also this "discrimination" that the nature of mind is somehow different because of the "school" gets dropped.

On a deeper level, DI (Direct Intoduction) is DI, whether it is in Bon or in Nyingmapa or within Dzogchen Community. Nobody has the registered trademark, with "all rights reserved" for offering Direct Introduction to the nature of mind, nor are all the ways of doing this the same.

When I met Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche he spontaneously gave me DI, this is what he did with me. He didn't say "you go get a mandala offering plate and I'll show you how to use it according to "my tradition", or you go get a picture of a Bon refuge tree and learn all the characters and make an elaborate visualization that we use in "my tradition", nor did he say practice these yidams which are all from Bon, from "my tradition". Nothing like that at all, he just told me (in what maybe interpreted as being rather "abstract") for me to get a holographic image for him, which wasn't so easy to find in the small country town where he was teaching, then when I cam back with the image and offered it to him, he immediately gave me DI with that image, although afterward he bonked me on the head with all the pechas which contained all the major lineages yidams from Bon, but the empowerment "all in one vase" was not the main point, the point was DI and it didn't have some teacher in this hologram, it was on the cover of a romance novel! He said: "Now you see it, now you don't".

He knew that someday I would be able to understand what he was doing, why he did everything that way, once again, he used a hologram on the cover of a romance novel to give DI!

There was no proliferation of "ideas" on this masters part from the very beginning. The "story" is a little longer, but the gist is, this master did the same thing CHNNR does, he didn't ask me to do anything except get him a hologram, he didn't ask me to get any particular kind, it didn't matter, or follow any "dogma" with many words, he just simply gave DI. He even didn't tell me what to practice afterwards, he just gave DI...thank you for being you Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche!

The nature of mind in Bon & the nature of mind in Dzogchen Nyingma, and the nature of mind in Dzogchen Community, this "nature" is the same.


What a great teaching story. Thanks for sharing it.
MalaBeads
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Buddhism & Bon: Practicing Both at Once?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Mon May 20, 2013 4:15 pm

Certainly Modern Bon is very similar to some forms of Buddhism today but that still doesn't make its refuge worthy. As you know at every age of the turning of Dharma the Dharma of the previous age becomes extinct and is renewed again by the Tathagata in this case Shakyamuni Buddha so for one to suggest that there is a ancient Buddha who's Dharma has been preserved in the form of the Bon religion is nonsense. Buddhist Refuge comes from Buddha you cannot call yourself a Buddhist if your refuge is also placed within Bon as well that's taking eclecticism way to far.


Of course everything samsaric has a beginning, middle, and end; and the Dharma of transmission is one of those things I guess (?)
We are told in many many places that the teachings of Shakyamuni will eventually die out.

However I'm hesitant to take the timelines we're given for this degeneration literally. For example, in one source I read (I believe) the Buddha himself said if women were allowed into the Sangha, the Dharma would only persist in this world for 500 years (as opposed to 1000?). That puts the total degeneration of the the teachings somewhere around the time of Christ. Which, I'm sure, makes sense to some people. Other sutras that comment on this clearly put the TOTAL degeneration of the Buddhas teachings long before our present era. Others don't. Most of us don't seem to care too much about it, and go about our practices anyway.

Moreover, so many things we believe (Padmasambhava living 3500 years, for example) are easily excused as "nonsense" by those who are looking for reasons to dismiss our tradition, whether within Tibetan schools or from the perspective of other Buddhist or even scientific views. I'm just arguing that we're all in this spectrum of beliefs. There is nothing that can't be seen from the perspective of ME and NOT ME and drawing lines in the spectrum of teachings related to and informed by Buddhism (there are so many!) and saying "that's us! thats not-us!" seems hazy most times, especially when people adhere to the core teachings and then have many other methods and traditions that inform their manifestation and practice. I.E. there is no Buddhism that exists in a vacuum: it is always placed within a particular (worldly) context of objects, language, and "degenerate" concepts.

I admit however that, without the refuge, a path can't really be called buddhism. Without Bodhicitta, it can't be called mahayana. However, if the view is correct and the ultimate refuge is...nondual, beyond words, unexcelled enlightened being, how can we fuss about that?
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

PreviousNext

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Astus, Bakmoon, lorem, Norwegian, prsvrnc, Sherab Dorje, smcj and 34 guests

>