Secrecy in Vajrayana

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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby conebeckham » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Images? The same. In another thread I posted a picture of Sukkhasiddhi. There are two main ways in which she is depicted in Tibetan iconography: in one she is sitting calmly, making a mudra with her left hand and holding a kapala (gasp!) bowl in her right hand. In the other she is depicted "revealing the secret lotus". Now, I chose the first image. The second image was normally secret and only revealed after an explanation of the symbology was given. To avoid misinterpretation.


That image you're talking about, the second one, is not Sukhasiddhi, though it has been misidentified as such in several places. It's Khacho Karmo, one of the two Dakini practices contained in Shangpa's Five Golden Dharmas.

Sometimes things that are secret get "misidentified" in public sources. A good example, eh?
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Stewart » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:24 pm

Beat me to it Cone :smile:
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:46 pm

conebeckham wrote:That image you're talking about, the second one, is not Sukhasiddhi, though it has been misidentified as such in several places. It's Khacho Karmo, one of the two Dakini practices contained in Shangpa's Five Golden Dharmas.

Sometimes things that are secret get "misidentified" in public sources. A good example, eh?
Pedant! :tongue:

Actually a perfect example! Thank you for pointing out that detail Cone!
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby conebeckham » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:18 pm

:twothumbsup:
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:42 am

Yudron wrote:There are lots of great lamas who are not always on the road--not all great lamas are famous or like to travel. There are plenty of opportunities to have a close relationship with a great lama. Come to the Bay Area and I will introduce you to some.


I live in the bay area. Who do you recommend?Yudron
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:32 pm

FPMT for example has a huge amount of stuff available, but they still give the caveat that one needs empowerment etc.


They give the caveat and in fact these days are even more careful. When I ordered a restricted sadhana from their website I had to provide the details regarding from whom, when and where I received the necessary initiation.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:52 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
FPMT for example has a huge amount of stuff available, but they still give the caveat that one needs empowerment etc.


They give the caveat and in fact these days are even more careful. When I ordered a restricted sadhana from their website I had to provide the details regarding from whom, when and where I received the necessary initiation.


I see what you're saying, but at least last I checked you could download sadhanas from them that require initiation for with no interaction or accountability to them at all. My only point is that to a new person who has not considered the nuances of a discussion like this it can send a seemingly contradictory message to have all these materials so widely available, but then to insist on the proper channels. If one reads up a bit, and has already decided they are going to make the good faith effort to do things right it is one thing, but often people begin from a place that involves a little doubt and desire to 'test'.

Vajrayana I think would naturally attract those willing to be a bit more..experimental I guess is the word in practice, and I have to wonder if simply the wide availability hasn't led to more than a few experimentations that would be outside the realm of acceptable to most teachers..get what i'm saying? Not trying to make any kind of judgement on things, just an observation as a relatively new person.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:00 pm

but at least last I checked you could download sadhanas from them that require initiation for with no interaction or accountability to them at all


Check again:

These practices are restricted to only those with the appropriate tantric empowerment. To receive a PDF you must write the name of the empowerment you have received and from whom in the “comment” section at check out. If you are unsure whether you are qualified email us at education@fpmt.org.


http://shop.fpmt.org/Requiring-Empowerment_c_242.html
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:03 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
but at least last I checked you could download sadhanas from them that require initiation for with no interaction or accountability to them at all


Check again:

These practices are restricted to only those with the appropriate tantric empowerment. To receive a PDF you must write the name of the empowerment you have received and from whom in the “comment” section at check out. If you are unsure whether you are qualified email us at education@fpmt.org.


http://shop.fpmt.org/Requiring-Empowerment_c_242.html



This is only true if you just go through their shop, instead of what many might do, which is google stuff.

I don't wish to post the things in question, but I can if you want an example. These are FPMT and affiliated sites too, not third parties that might have redistributed them. They have all kinds of sadhanas accessible for free download that require empowerment, by accident or not.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:04 pm

You should definitely bring it to their attention if this is the case!

I think the digression also happens depending on how strict your view of these things is...

In the case of FPMT, only Anuttarayoga/Highest Yoga Tantra sadhanas are restricted, though some lamas might say that every Tantric sadhana should be restricted.

In the case of the Lama Chopa, it is made available because HHDL has stated that it is fine to do the practice as a group, and that an HYT initiation is only required to study the texts.

The thing is these standards vary from lama to lama, even at different FPMT centres people have different views according to what their teachers might say (depending on which lama is resident and what his opinion is.)
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:09 pm

Think about what "sharing" is. Talking about yourself. Whatever "progress" you made letting go of self is instantly muddled by talking about yourself.

There is no progress to talk about. The idea of progress is dualism, spiritual materialism. This is Mahayana, you have to go way beyond what everyone else is thinking. Go beyond cause and effect, beyond effectiveness and ineffectiveness. Drop every idea. This is the fruit. It's also the foundation. The basis for all giving perfection as stated in Diamond Sutra.

In San Francisco, at 767 10th Ave. Drubpon Rinpoche never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby orgyen jigmed » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:18 pm

The timing of the advice for social media from Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is interesting, 'cause recently I found myself pondering this whole question about secrecy in Vajrayana, not in respect to social media, but in general....


According to a quote from H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche in his 'History of the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddism' states:

"In general, the Indian adepts of the secret mantra strictly preserved secrecy until they attained accomplishment, no one knew them to be adepts of the way of secret mantra. And when they vanished in a most miraculous manner, or displayed extraordinary powers, people would exclaim, "Oh, my goodness! he was a mantra adept". So it was that they were only recognised later. This is why all those who practised the way of mantras attained at least some particular accomplishement."
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:20 pm

never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.


Ummmm... Okay....That seemed a somewhat random "promote my teacher"plug.

At the same time, you are making me want to drop by San Francisco though.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:21 pm

I think I get it Venerable, it is important, and there is no perfect answer. Still, the fact that we admit there is no consistency seems to suggest that the original poster is on to something, and that overall a response to this question from authority figures is ultimately going to require more than just business as usual. It seems to come up alot in the Vajrayana world.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:26 pm

Yes exactly!

When people ask me about this I am sometimes reluctant to answer as I have heard so many different views.

And sometimes it is the most famous and contemporary of lamas, like Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche, who are the most conservative regarding these kinds of topics.

I guess the best bet is for people to follow the lead of their teacher from whom they received tantric empowerment. But then if one has received them from several teachers even that might not be helpful advice. :oops:
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Yudron » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:41 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Yudron wrote:There are lots of great lamas who are not always on the road--not all great lamas are famous or like to travel. There are plenty of opportunities to have a close relationship with a great lama. Come to the Bay Area and I will introduce you to some.


I live in the bay area. Who do you recommend?Yudron


I've known the following lamas for many years and they maintain a close relationship with Lama Tharchin Rinpoche http://www.vajrayana.org, who is a little farther away:
Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche http://www.atiamrita.org
Loppon Jigme Rinpoche http://www.lotusdharmagarden.org/Lotus_Dharma_Garden/Lotus_Dharma_Garden_Home.html
Lama Pema Dorje Rinpoche http://sangchenpemachholing.org/ His new schedule should be posted soon. Rinpoche is very humble, completely not oriented to gaining wealth and fame--or even students--don't miss out on him! He is in his 70's, and was a close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche.

Also, I have received very good advice and help from the following lamas:
Anam Thubten http://www.dharmata.org
Lama Palden http://www.sukhasiddhi.org

Those lamas, are associated with other lamas in the area, who I don't know as well yet, such as Khenpo Karten, Tulku Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche, Lama Orgyen Zangpo Rinpoche who seem quite wonderful.

These are the one's I know. There are many other lamas I don't know, such as lamas at KDK in SF, The geshe at Tse Chen Ling in SF, Ari and Rose Goldfield, Lama Kunga Rinpoche, and on and on.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:03 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
never asks anyone how they are doing. He knows everything. Just do as he says and you know it's as good as if you heard it from Vajradhara.


Ummmm... Okay....That seemed a somewhat random "promote my teacher"plug.

At the same time, you are making me want to drop by San Francisco though.


Shameless plug. Garchen Rinpoche told me Drubpon Rinpoche is very precious. I'm sure there are many very amazing teachers. I've been with him five years now. Only recently he's been blowing my mind even more. Actually, he knows my every thought. I can't explain how I know this without it seeming weird, but he's the omniscient one is all I have to say. Drikung Kagyu is absolutely glorious. I'm so lucky to have made this precious friend. So happy!
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:19 pm

Yudron wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Yudron wrote:There are lots of great lamas who are not always on the road--not all great lamas are famous or like to travel. There are plenty of opportunities to have a close relationship with a great lama. Come to the Bay Area and I will introduce you to some.


I live in the bay area. Who do you recommend?Yudron


I've known the following lamas for many years and they maintain a close relationship with Lama Tharchin Rinpoche http://www.vajrayana.org, who is a little farther away:
Orgyen Chowang Rinpoche http://www.atiamrita.org
Loppon Jigme Rinpoche http://www.lotusdharmagarden.org/Lotus_Dharma_Garden/Lotus_Dharma_Garden_Home.html
Lama Pema Dorje Rinpoche http://sangchenpemachholing.org/ His new schedule should be posted soon. Rinpoche is very humble, completely not oriented to gaining wealth and fame--or even students--don't miss out on him! He is in his 70's, and was a close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche.

Also, I have received very good advice and help from the following lamas:
Anam Thubten http://www.dharmata.org
Lama Palden http://www.sukhasiddhi.org

Those lamas, are associated with other lamas in the area, who I don't know as well yet, such as Khenpo Karten, Tulku Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche, Lama Orgyen Zangpo Rinpoche who seem quite wonderful.

These are the one's I know. There are many other lamas I don't know, such as lamas at KDK in SF, The geshe at Tse Chen Ling in SF, Ari and Rose Goldfield, Lama Kunga Rinpoche, and on and on.


Good one. Wow. Bay Area is a pure land.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby Punya » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:30 pm

:bow:
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Strife with outer enemies will never end.
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Re: Secrecy in Vajrayana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:21 pm

The main reason for secrecy is that if you speak about some realization you lose it. There are many stories. One funny one is one chakrasamvara master attained siddhi of shitting gold. He gave one nugget to Holiness Talkung Matul Rinpoche. Then never again gold did he shit.
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