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Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka? - Dhamma Wheel

Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sekha
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Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:27 pm

Last edited by Sekha on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby santa100 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:06 pm

The fact that there're just as many accomplished teachers and practitioners (in term of virtues and wisdom) in Mahayana as in Theravada proves that Mahayana is another effective system to be used. People have different personalities, mentalities, and backgrounds, thus the Dhamma also needs to have different models that work for their types. At the end of the day, it's not the models (Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc,) that counts, what matters is how successful one's able to utilize the model to develop his/her wisdom and virtues, and ultimatly put and end to suffering.

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:25 pm

As I understand the Mahayanist view, it is an attempt to teach more than what the Buddha taught, which I find to be very pretentious and eventually it leads people to look down on what he actually taught, which in my understanding is a deficiency in conviction reagarding the Dhamma and is a dangerous thing.

:anjali:

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:22 pm

Actually, I think most of the disputes were over issues of the Vinaya / Patimokkha.

But, yes, throughout the Suttas, the Buddha refers to the Dhamma and Discipline. And then of course it is debatable if 'Dhamma' also meant Abhidhamma.
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:12 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:16 pm

Thank you Bhante! :bow:

with metta and respect
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:23 pm

The question is whether the phrase "abhidhamma" therein refers to (the content of) the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Chances are good that the abhidhamma was being collated about the same time that the Nikayas were being set up in their current format, iirc, so it's possible; I believe one view is that the terms "abhidhamma" and "abhivinaya" may have referred to the process of explaining the condensed SuttaVinaya material. However, it's certain that the Abhidhamma Pitaka could never have been referred to by the Buddha, and it's not at all clear whether or not the Abhidhamma Pitaka in part or altogether was generated according to the abhidhammic method in use in the Buddha's day.

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:17 pm

Regarding phrase "Abhidhamma and Abhivinaya".

Just as Abhivinaya does not refer to pitaka of that name, why should "Abhidhamma" refer to pitaka of that name? Abhivinaya might be more advanced study of Vinaya, and Abhidhamma to be more technical study of Dhamma found in the suttas such as SN22.57 etc.

Of course the suttas do talk on highly technical topics, no dispute here. The question is about "pitaka".
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:05 pm

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:49 pm

Last edited by Sekha on Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby yamaka » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:26 am

The existing of the Abhidhamma may not appeared as same as the time of Buddha period, there were many forms of Abhidhamma look like Sutta (e.g Q & A between two Bhikkhus)

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:07 am


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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:38 am

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:12 am

It sounds like this topic is primarily about the "The Great Abhidhamma Authenticity debate" for which we already have a topic in the DFFA.

Here is one of the main arguments for the Abhidhamma not being a Pitaka or at least not Buddhavacana:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order, saying: 'Your reverences, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Upali on discipline.' Then the venerable Upali informed the Order, saying: 'Honorable sirs, the Order listen to me . . . "

And then the Patimokkha of the Vinaya was recited.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Ananda about dhamma.' Then the venerable Ananada informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order, I, questioned on the dhamma by the venerable Kassapa the Great, could answer . . . "

And then Kassapa questions Ananda on the first two chapters of the Digha Nikaya and after that we have:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great questioned the venerable Ananda as to the provenance of the Samannaphala and he questioned him as to the individual. In this same way he questioned him about the five Nikayas. Constantly, questioned, the venerable Ananda answered."

Vinaya, Cullavagga XI

Notice how that sentence appears to be a summarizing statement, stating all of the rest that was recited at the First Council.

At least from the Canonical account (Tipitaka), there appears to be no indication that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council.

See much more info at "The Great Abhidhamma Authenticity debate":

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2169

See also my summary here:
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:38 am

Thanks for the references, I'll have a look.

you are certainly right as to "The Great Abhidhamma Authenticity debate", the existence of which I was blatently unaware.
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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:44 am


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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:08 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:39 am

After the Buddha's death, the Sangha assembled and organised his teaching into two baskets. At the third council, the third basket was added, and later, Commentaries were added. Now we have the Tipitaka, Commentaries, and Subcommentaries.

Just because something is in the Commentaries or Abhidhamma does not mean it is not the teaching of the Buddha. Just because does not mean that it is, or that it was taught during the Buddha's own lifetime.

The criteria for deciding what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma are given in the

The fret and worry about Abhidhamma not being the Buddha's teaching looks like the fruit of attachment and misunderstanding of the Dhamma.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Sekha » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:25 pm

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Not Ti-pitaka, rather Dve-pitaka?

Postby Zom » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:04 pm

There is one big problem with Abhidhamma and Commentaries - the allowance of practice without jhana-samadhi, which is directly opposite to the suttas. As well as this strange system of "vipassana-nyanas" as the fruits of practice. Nowhere in the suttas did Buddha teach this kind of practice results.
:spy: :reading: 8-)


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