On Aro gTér

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby mutsuk » Wed May 28, 2014 8:38 pm

Adi wrote:My powers of observation must be poor or my world needs a larger compass. In a decade of associating with Nyingmapas I've never encountered this anxiety in any form.

There is a gigantic literature on the subject, not to mention the fact that most of the literature of the old translation which has been the object of attacks from zealots of Sarma schools. Moreover, the question of fake treasures and fake treasure revealers is at the core of advanced discussion in Mipham works and others. If you don't read Tibetan there are meager chances that Lamas will discuss that with you...
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Adi » Wed May 28, 2014 8:41 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Adi wrote:My powers of observation must be poor or my world needs a larger compass. In a decade of associating with Nyingmapas I've never encountered this anxiety in any form.

There is a gigantic literature on the subject, not to mention the fact that most of the literature of the old translation which has been the object of attacks from zealots of Sarma schools. Moreover, the question of fake treasures and fake treasure revealers is at the core of advanced discussion in Mipham works and others. If you don't read Tibetan there are meager chances that Lamas will discuss that with you...


Like I said, it's my small world I live in apparently. But now I get to develop my own anxiety about missing a larger anxiety over issues I didn't know about before. :)

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 28, 2014 8:42 pm

Adi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...My point is that for most Nyingmapas, the anxiety about authenticity is quite real….So, people need to understand that this issue really cuts to the heart of what it means to be a follower of Termas, to be a Nyingmapa…


My powers of observation must be poor or my world needs a larger compass. In a decade of associating with Nyingmapas I've never encountered this anxiety in any form.



It's an institutional anxiety. It made not be felt by individual practitioners, especially in the West, but it is keenly felt in Nyingma institutions. It is for this reason there is quite a bit of literature defending the treasure tradition, for example, like the arguments found in the end of Dudjom R's big red book. Here again, the context is defending the Nyingma tradition from attacks of Pabhongka's followers.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
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http://atikosha.org
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Adi » Wed May 28, 2014 8:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:It's an institutional anxiety. It made not be felt by individual practitioners, especially in the West, but it is keenly felt in Nyingma institutions. It is for this reason there is quite a bit of literature defending the treasure tradition, for example, like the arguments found in the end of Dudjom R's big red book. Here again, the context is defending the Nyingma tradition from attacks of Pabhongka's followers.


Thank you, that is very helpful & gives me some context. I shall have to re-read that section of the Big Red Book.

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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby heart » Wed May 28, 2014 10:10 pm

Alex Hubbard wrote:'Roaring Silence' is soon to be re-released as an ebook by Shambhala with a new preface (or intro?) by Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche from the Mindrolling tradition, that one covers the Dzogchen Semdé naljors.


Really? I know Tulku Dakpa and had no idea that he was involved with the Aro people except some of them going to the teachings he arranged with Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche in Finland a few years ago.

/magnus
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby saraswati » Wed May 28, 2014 11:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:There is nothing here but the same claims and counterclaims that have been made endlessly for years. In the end, the people who are supporters of Chogyam support him, and the others do not. There really is nothing to be learned here at all, in my opinion. But you all do as you please.


As a self-confessed newbie, I am finding this topic fascinating. I must say I came across Aro in my early days of looking into Tibetan Buddhism and the stuff on the web about Aro made me step way back into traditional Theravada and Zen practices. I never made it to e-Sangha. So it is really good that these different points of view are presented to warn beginner enquirers into Vajrayana that Aro is not a strong representative, even though it comes up quite highly on web searches.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby yegyal » Thu May 29, 2014 4:18 am

You can find a discussion of terma authenticity, including a translation of a short text by Mipham on the subject here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/12127576/Doct ... n-Gling-Pa
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 8:40 am

heart wrote:
Alex Hubbard wrote:'Roaring Silence' is soon to be re-released as an ebook by Shambhala with a new preface (or intro?) by Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche from the Mindrolling tradition, that one covers the Dzogchen Semdé naljors.


Really? I know Tulku Dakpa and had no idea that he was involved with the Aro people except some of them going to the teachings he arranged with Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche in Finland a few years ago.

/magnus



Always surprising isn't it, when our certainties are not shared..
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby yegyal » Thu May 29, 2014 9:18 am

Well, what isn't surprising is that he would need a new intro to one of his books, since he got into trouble for previous forwards that he apparently wrote himself, but claimed were written by Chime Rigdzin and Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, which were later removed from subsequent editions. It seems he is quite adept at attaching himself to lamas in this way and using their esteemed reputations to bolster his own. Furthermore, it seems pretty naive to think that these lamas actually read the books they write intros for. Especially, when many of them can barely read English.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 9:21 am

Yes...naive Lamas , that must be it...Or was it simply Lamas who write forewords to books that they have not read..or is it everyone else that is naive..or are you saying that this is another fake..
In which case do you have proof that the Lama in question has neither read the book or did not write the foreword ?

Otherwise that strikes me as a breach of Right Speech.

:popcorn: prapanca prapanca prapanca..

Its the degree of righteous indignation that has captured my attention and makes me wonder what the problem REALLY is..
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu May 29, 2014 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby heart » Thu May 29, 2014 9:22 am

Simon E. wrote:
heart wrote:
Alex Hubbard wrote:'Roaring Silence' is soon to be re-released as an ebook by Shambhala with a new preface (or intro?) by Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche from the Mindrolling tradition, that one covers the Dzogchen Semdé naljors.


Really? I know Tulku Dakpa and had no idea that he was involved with the Aro people except some of them going to the teachings he arranged with Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche in Finland a few years ago.

/magnus



Always surprising isn't it, when our certainties are not shared..


Really Simon, this subject seem to make you unnecessary agitated. I haven't expressed any certainties at all in this thread.

/magnus
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 9:25 am

I think I may be one of the few contributors to the thread who is neither agitated nor feeling righteous indignation.. :smile:

Its fascinating.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby yegyal » Thu May 29, 2014 9:30 am

Simon E. wrote:Yes...naive Lamas , that must be it...

I wasn't referring to the lamas as being naive. But feel tree to twist my words as you've been doing to everybody that disagrees with your snide remarks on this thread. The fact that you seem to think you're neutral in regards to this issue is laughable, as you seem to be having a pretty good time playing devil's advocate.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 9:34 am

yegyal wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Yes...naive Lamas , that must be it...

I wasn't referring to the lamas as being naive. But feel tree to twist my words as you've been doing to everybody that disagrees with your snide remarks on this thread. The fact that you seem to think you're neutral in regards to this issue is laughable, as you seem to be having a pretty good time playing devil's advocate.



Go on...get it off your chest.
It clearly serves some function for you..
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 9:47 am

Just to add, I started off neutral..now I am intrigued.
As I am by any crowd marching up to the top of the village with flaming torches and pitchforks..
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby heart » Thu May 29, 2014 10:06 am

Simon E. wrote:I think I may be one of the few contributors to the thread who is neither agitated nor feeling righteous indignation.. :smile:

Its fascinating.


Utterly fascinating, perhaps you should reread the thread and see if you can find some "agitation or righteous indignation" in any of my posts.

/magnus
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 10:08 am

Perhaps you are another one of the few, Magnus.. :smile:

I think most observers would see rather a lot of fist shaking and hurumphing going on however..
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby mutsuk » Thu May 29, 2014 10:36 am

Simon E. wrote:Yes...naive Lamas , that must be it...Or was it simply Lamas who write forewords to books that they have not read..or is it everyone else that is naive..or are you saying that this is another fake..
In which case do you have proof that the Lama in question has neither read the book or did not write the foreword ?

Otherwise that strikes me as a breach of Right Speech.

:popcorn: prapanca prapanca prapanca..

Its the degree of righteous indignation that has captured my attention and makes me wonder what the problem REALLY is..

I don't know where you've been in the past 25-30 years (nor is it actually important) but it's pretty well-known among translators who have their book prefaced by a lama that these lamas don't read the books they preface. Starting with the fact that they don't read latin alphabet nor English, or French, etc.

Please Simon E. as requested by another poster, stop twisting other people's words and acknowledge the fact that Chogyam manipulated some lamas and had to remove their "preface". This is telling.

BTW, it is clear to all reading your posts that you are not neutral in this debate. What is it that you want to prove by portraying others the way you do? Are we going to torch Chogyam ? No. Surely not. Would it be good if he were to acknowledge the whole hoax behind the Aro lineage ? Yes, for sure.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 29, 2014 10:54 am

I believe that's known as the " When did you stop beating your wife ? " school of debate.

But clearly actual debate is not on the agenda.
You have your firm opinion.

It will of course change nothing .

The Aro has a small and dedicated Sangha who do not spend their time castigating other groups.
That will continue.
Each of its members is aquainted with all of the critiques both informed and otherwise aimed at them, and have decided to exercise their own judgement on the matter.
From time to time they will be joined by others who have weighed the issue.

Me ? back to the cushion.

The floor is yours...enjoy.
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Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Poorbitch » Thu May 29, 2014 10:57 am

back to the caution ? :smile:
blom blah blum
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