On Aro gTér

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 28, 2014 6:52 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Malcolm wrote:There is nothing here but the same claims and counterclaims that have been made endlessly for years. In the end, the people who are supporters of Chogyam support him, and the others do not. There really is nothing to be learned here at all, in my opinion. But you all do as you please.

I respect your valued experience in this precise debate. I'm sure nobody will convince the other side but if some new infos can be given and a deeper understanding be made, then all this will not be in vain. Honestly, I doubt it but I want to give it a chance. At least, today I learned from Alex that a Khro-rgyal dpa'-bo is to be the father of Aro Lingma. The plot thickens since there is no single mention of him anywhere either... Maybe Chogyamists will start to smell the same thing we smell regarding the "historicity" of that lineage...


I would bet a small wager that no ' Chogyamists ' visit this forum, except very occasionally the brave Shardrol.

So I suspect that you and all of us are waxing eloquent into a canyon.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 28, 2014 6:58 pm

I believe Mr. Hubbard is a Chogyamist.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby mutsuk » Wed May 28, 2014 6:58 pm

Simon E. wrote:I would bet a small wager that no ' Chogyamists ' visit this forum, except very occasionally the brave Shardrol.

Alex Hubbard comes here. He seems a nice chap and willing to understand something, or at least he is providing some elements.
mutsuk
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Wed May 28, 2014 7:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:In the end, the people who are supporters of Chogyam support him, and the others do not.


That is not true. I know quite a few people who were interested in the Aro Ter and turned away from them after they read some critical information about them on the web. It's very important to keep that critical discourse open and running. If you find it uninteresting nobody expects you to participate.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
ReasonAndRhyme
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 28, 2014 7:13 pm

I think the question is are WE willing to understand something.
I think all this fascination with the ArogTer is a displacement exercise...
What is being displaced will vary from person to person.

They have become a repository for free -floating angst.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 28, 2014 7:16 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
Malcolm wrote:In the end, the people who are supporters of Chogyam support him, and the others do not.


That is not true. I know quite a few people who were interested in the Aro Ter and turned away from them after they read some critical information about them on the web. It's very important to keep that critical discourse open and running. If you find it uninteresting nobody expects you to participate.


I know three people that attended study/meditation days with the Aro gTer as a direct result of the hoohah on E Sangha.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby mutsuk » Wed May 28, 2014 7:18 pm

Simon E. wrote:I think the question is are WE willing to understand something.
I think all this fascination with the ArogTer is a displacement exercise...
What is being displaced will vary from person to person.

They have become a repository for free -floating angst.

You should approach the issue with the perspective given by ReasonAndRhyme above your previous post. This makes a huge difference because, PRECISELY, lineage makes a difference.
mutsuk
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 28, 2014 7:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:I think the question is are WE willing to understand something.

The answer, in my case, is yes.
Simon E. wrote:I think all this fascination with the ArogTer is a displacement exercise...
What is being displaced will vary from person to person.

They have become a repository for free -floating angst.

I don't know what you mean, but your remarks seem very condescending.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Simon E. » Wed May 28, 2014 7:26 pm

Oh well enjoy ventilating and crusading.

Over in Wales the Aro people are probably planning to do something positive and Dharma affirming this week end...good for them.. :twothumbsup:
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Alex Hubbard » Wed May 28, 2014 7:27 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Alex, what do you think about Nyoshul Khenpo calling the Aro stuff a fake terma?


Good question dzogchungpa, I was thinking about that. I guess firstly, if I dared, I'd ask why he thought that and on what basis. Who knows what that answer would be. Maybe that he'd never heard of Aro Lingma or the Aro gTér in Tibet? Or perhaps he had siddhi born of his realisation and was able to discern the true nature of the practices taught under the term aro gtér? I don't really know.

He must've had some reason to call it fake, but I've no idea what. Mutsuk's answer to my question about the term gter-dzun (??) gave a dictionary definition and I was left wondering what the context of that reply was. I mean did he imply made up by someone or rather that the aro gtér teachings weren't authentically pure vision but just karmic vision. Either way, to come to a firm conclusion I'd at least have to know why he thought what he thought. If I was feeling really cheeky I'd ask how did he know if he hadn't practised any of the practices. . .

What do you think about what he said?
Alex Hubbard
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Wed May 28, 2014 7:32 pm

Simon E. wrote:I know three people that attended study/meditation days with the Aro gTer as a direct result of the hoohah on E Sangha.


Yes. And? I don't see that as a problem. I've gone through a phase of orientation before I met Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche when I also attended some meditation weekends with the Aro Ter guys. They don't bite. They're very nice people. And on an intellectual level their teachings are very fascinating. I can't blame anybody for going to see them because they want to make up their own mind. And I'm not trying to impose my opinion about the authenticity or inauthenticity of their lineage on anybody else. But everybody should have a chance to make up their mind. People have a right to get the facts and the pros and cons. What they make of it is their own decision. It is, however, just not true that these internet discussions don't influence anybody.
Last edited by ReasonAndRhyme on Wed May 28, 2014 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
ReasonAndRhyme
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Alex Hubbard » Wed May 28, 2014 7:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:And now we understand why on E-Sangha this topic was closed for discussion...it just does not lead anywhere but to increased acrimony between everyone involved.


M


I think we're doing all right, I like the fact that people seem able to handle themselves discussing something contentious.

Alex.
Alex Hubbard
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Alex Hubbard » Wed May 28, 2014 7:41 pm

kng wrote:I would be interested to hear something about Aro Yidams and their functionality from Aro practitioners, since this terma is being taught since 1988. As far as I know and according to conversations I have had with experienced members of Dzogchen Community, it is possible to produce very concrete functions of secondary practices, that N.N.Rinpoche teaches. I never had circumstance to do a proper retreat so I can't say much on this topic, but my sangha friends say, that in most cases one week retreat is sufficient to produce the function.


Sorry kng, I don't really know what it is you're asking here.

Alex.
Alex Hubbard
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Alex Hubbard » Wed May 28, 2014 7:46 pm

mutsuk wrote: I would love to see Chogyam demonstrate the historicity of Aro Lingma and show some of gter-ma/dag-snang he has received. In which language was that ? Can we have a look at the originals?


I think sdw answered something on that earlier on in the thread.
Alex Hubbard
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 28, 2014 7:47 pm

Alex Hubbard wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Alex, what do you think about Nyoshul Khenpo calling the Aro stuff a fake terma?
Good question dzogchungpa, I was thinking about that...

What do you think about what he said?

I think that Nyoshul Khenpo thought people should not study and practice the Aro stuff. That in turn makes me think that I should not practice it. I am planning to read some more of the books though, just to see what it's like.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 28, 2014 8:00 pm

Simon E. wrote:If you were my client I would be honing in on the nature and degree of your interest here, in something that you dismiss...fortunately for us both ..you aren't. ;)


The validity of purported termas is something which causes some anxiety in the Nyingma school. The hermeneutics around terma revelation are complicated, such as the tradition of disregarding a terton's uncertain behavior and so on. The reason for this is that false tertons bring the Nyingmapas into quite a bit of disrepute with the other schools, especially the Gelugpas and the Ngor sect of Sakya.

Thus the issue can be intense. There have been many fake tertons in Tibetan history. The issue is sufficiently sensitive that Michael Arise was permanently denied entry to Bhutan for his treatment of Pema Lingpa, where he asserted in essence that Pema Lingpa was a complete fraud in every respect.

Chogyur Lingpa too, in his early career, suffered from people basically thinking that he was a charlatan. It was only when he was taken under the wing of Khyentse Wangpo that he gained the necessary credibility and influence with powerful persons such as the 15th Karmapa, which ensured the survival and wide adoption of his treasures.

My point is that for most Nyingmapas, the anxiety about authenticity is quite real, and so it is natural that a westerner producing a set of teachings that are labeled as "terma" is going to provoke wide spread disbelief, incredulity and hostility. Further, they will find it hard to get anyone to give them a break. In other words, if it is hard for a Tibetan who is writing down "termas" to get a break (even though most termas in reality are forgotten about within 50 years of the passing of the terton who revealed them, if not sooner) how much more so for a non-Tibetan?

Even KDL met with some hostility when he first came to the US, for example, since at that time people were largely unaware of his connection with Dudjom Rinpoche, Trinly Norbu RInpoche and Minling Trichen. So I knew of some Nyingma Lamas who were like "Who is this guy?"

So, people need to understand that this issue really cuts to the heart of what it means to be a follower of Termas, to be a Nyingmapa. Therefore, some people regard Chogyam as a mere pretender, some are neutral, and some people think he is doing real harm to the Dharma. Of course the other side of this issue has been extensively covered by David Chapman. For the most part however, the Aro crew has wisely refrained from engaging in public debate about the authenticity of Chogyam, preferring to allow Chapman's website to be their mouthpiece. The main thrust of Chapman's replies can be summed as follows: "These are matters of religion and faith, thus, no one can really tell anyone else what is valid and what is not valid".

In the end, all people can do is rely on the advice of their own teachers, or failing that, their own judgement. The same goes for Shugden and NKT, Michael Roach, Ivo and others. It is for this reason that we are told to observe teachers for many years before taking empowerments with them. Also the teacher is to observe the student. This does not happen these days so many people make Dharma connections rashly that they come to regret later. I have myself done so, much to my enduring regret. Having been singed once, I am now much, much more careful about who I will make a Dharma connection with, even if it concerns a single verse of sūtra.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12568
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Alex Hubbard » Wed May 28, 2014 8:06 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Alex Hubbard wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Alex, what do you think about Nyoshul Khenpo calling the Aro stuff a fake terma?
Good question dzogchungpa, I was thinking about that...

What do you think about what he said?

I think that Nyoshul Khenpo thought people should not study and practice the Aro stuff. That in turn makes me think that I should not practice it. I am planning to read some more of the books though, just to see what it's like.


Yeah, I can see why you'd think that, Nyoshul Khenpo was a giant in his way. The thing is, I know of statements made by other lamas praising Ngak'chang Rinpoche's realisation for example, so, from where do I take my influences in the end? From which lama, from a forum, myself? Anyway, if you want a very broad sense of what they teach then read 'Emailing the Lamas from Afar' as that is extracts from emails they've answered to their students, for the Khandro-Pawo teachings on romantic relationship as practice there's 'Entering the Heart of the Sun and Moon'. 'Roaring Silence' is soon to be re-released as an ebook by Shambhala with a new preface (or intro?) by Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche from the Mindrolling tradition, that one covers the Dzogchen Semdé naljors. Tantra is represented by 'Spectrum of Ecstasy' on the five elements, and 'Wearing the Body of Visions', Ngak'chang Rinpoche's discussion of tantra and the vajra master.
Alex Hubbard
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby kng » Wed May 28, 2014 8:23 pm

Alex Hubbard wrote:
kng wrote:I would be interested to hear something about Aro Yidams and their functionality from Aro practitioners, since this terma is being taught since 1988. As far as I know and according to conversations I have had with experienced members of Dzogchen Community, it is possible to produce very concrete functions of secondary practices, that N.N.Rinpoche teaches. I never had circumstance to do a proper retreat so I can't say much on this topic, but my sangha friends say, that in most cases one week retreat is sufficient to produce the function.


Sorry kng, I don't really know what it is you're asking here.

Alex.


As far as I know, the primary purpose of each Yidam practice is enlightenment. But practices also have their secondary functions for overcoming certain obstacles. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives for example Red Garuda terma with 2 action mantras, one of them is for overcoming cancer. So if you are able to overcome cancer with this action mantra, you have produced the function of the practice.

If there is for example some Garuda form in Aro gTer, do you have evidence of someone recovering from Naga-related diseases?

I gave it just as an example, so that you understand what I mean.
They all are buddhas, they just don't tell me, because they feel ashamed, that I am not.
Lama Ole Nydahl
User avatar
kng
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:26 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Adi » Wed May 28, 2014 8:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:...My point is that for most Nyingmapas, the anxiety about authenticity is quite real….So, people need to understand that this issue really cuts to the heart of what it means to be a follower of Termas, to be a Nyingmapa…


My powers of observation must be poor or my world needs a larger compass. In a decade of associating with Nyingmapas I've never encountered this anxiety in any form.

In the end, all people can do is rely on the advice of their own teachers, or failing that, their own judgement...It is for this reason that we are told to observe teachers for many years before taking empowerments with them. Also the teacher is to observe the student. This does not happen these days so many people make Dharma connections rashly that they come to regret later. I have myself done so, much to my enduring regret. Having been singed once, I am now much, much more careful about who I will make a Dharma connection with, even if it concerns a single verse of sūtra.


I think this is very wise advice & echoes everything I've been told or read, from my own teachers to the writings of Patrul Rinpoche in Words of My Perfect Teacher. It also is to my mind one of the foundations of Buddhism and reflects Shakayamuni Buddha's famous last advice. In the end it's up to each practitioner to work it out for themselves. For myself, I'm willing to hear what anyone has to say but making those Dharma connections is something I'm careful about to the point of methodical diligence.

Adi
Adi
 
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: On Aro gTér

Postby Alex Hubbard » Wed May 28, 2014 8:37 pm

kng wrote:
Alex Hubbard wrote:
kng wrote:I would be interested to hear something about Aro Yidams and their functionality from Aro practitioners, since this terma is being taught since 1988. As far as I know and according to conversations I have had with experienced members of Dzogchen Community, it is possible to produce very concrete functions of secondary practices, that N.N.Rinpoche teaches. I never had circumstance to do a proper retreat so I can't say much on this topic, but my sangha friends say, that in most cases one week retreat is sufficient to produce the function.


Sorry kng, I don't really know what it is you're asking here.

Alex.


As far as I know, the primary purpose of each Yidam practice is enlightenment. But practices also have their secondary functions for overcoming certain obstacles. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives for example Red Garuda terma with 2 action mantras, one of them is for overcoming cancer. So if you are able to overcome cancer with this action mantra, you have produced the function of the practice.

If there is for example some Garuda form in Aro gTer, do you have evidence of someone recovering from Naga-related diseases?

I gave it just as an example, so that you understand what I mean.


I see, thanks. I do know that some but not all of the 111 Aro gTér yidams have activity mantras and that one practices them if you have already accumulated sufficient numbers of the regular mantra, on the instruction of one's lama. I myself haven't ever practised a yidam with those kinds of secondary practices in mind so I can't speak from experience. Generally though kng I'd guess any specifics on this topic would be handled in a different setting rather than online.

All the best,
Alex.
Alex Hubbard
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: heart, Ngwang tenzin, Tanaduk, TaTa and 30 guests

>