popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:29 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:
Pero wrote:How does anuyoga look like for other teachers?


Other teachers always refer to Anuyoga as specializing in the second and third empowerment practices.

An other thing is that for example Tukdrup Barche Kunsel is considered, even in Chokling Tersar, to be Mahayoga. The leyang, the Trinely Nyingpo, have a development stage that is like a fast Mahayoga. However the ghynkher of that same practice, the concise daily practice, use a instant visualization style. Then of course there is a part of the Tukdrup Barche Kunsel that is a pure Dzogchen teaching, Rigdzin Pema Jugne is just a teaching on Trechö and Tögal as well as a teaching on the six liberations, this empowerment is in the Rinchen Terdzö in the Mengakde section of Atiyoga. So just looking just at one single cycle, that is considered Mahayoga, this distinctions between Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga becomes quite difficult to follow.

/magnus

So the practices we do in DC that we consider anuyoga other teachers would consider as atiyoga (like you mentioned the Shitro Khorde Rangdrol)? Is there nothing that other teachers would think of as anuyoga in DC (the only deity practices we have with tsalung, as far as I know, are Mandarava, Vajrapani and Sinhamukha and the latter two have not been taught in my time or perhaps at all)?

It seems a bit confusing to me hehe. When I received Thugje Chenpo Munsel Dronme (Pema Lingpa terma) from Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche, he said that it belongs to the Yangti. But I don't think I can see any big difference between it and the other practices in DC. Unfortunately I didn't remember to ask what exactly makes it Yangti when I had the chance recently.


Oh, I agree that it is confusing. Unfortunately I have no real answers. It seems to me that there are two approaches, either you teach maha/anu/ati like a gradual path starting with maha and ending in ati or you teach Dzogchen and add just about anything you see helpful to that. No one seems to be teaching only Maha or only Anu or only Ati. Then of course the terma cycles (or systems as someone suggested) can contain just about any kind of mix of teachings and practices of the inner tantras. So I don't think Nyingma is very well organized in this way, or maybe it is just perfect. At least for me. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Yudron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:42 am

I recall hearing somewhere that there are some brief practices in the Konchog Chidu completion stage (kham sum yong drol) that precede tummo--little visualization practices without mantra. That's the only time I've encountered Nyingma practices, other than full on 2nd and 3rd empowerment practices, called anuyoga.

One can read in Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche's book White Sail that the root of Anuyoga is tummo.

That said ChNN is a great scholar and I'm sure he has excellent reasons for looking at things the way he does.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Sherlock » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:53 am

Well, the Kunjed Gyalpo talks about anuyoga just using the root mantras to "complete the mandala" (probably referring to the completion stage) and not involving "method and prajna", which might be a reference to sexual practice, maybe including tsa lung. In his commentary translated by Jim Valby, Khenpo Zhenphen Oser writes that methods of channels and prana are still applied to get into the real condition. This isn't mentioned in the context of the two stages though.

It would be nice to have someone familiar with the Dzogchen root texts to mention what the others say about anuyoga.

I think ChNN emphasizes dzog rim without signs in his teaching, i.e. just using the root mantras; this is a valid way even according to other teachers, who on the other hand emphasize dzog rim with signs (tsa lung, tummo etc) more. Also, in ChNN's teaching, yantra yoga can fulfill everything that completion stage with sign does and is more connected to Dzogchen too.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Yudron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:54 am

Sherlock wrote:Well, the Kunjed Gyalpo talks about anuyoga just using the root mantras to "complete the mandala" (probably referring to the completion stage) and not involving "method and prajna", which might be a reference to sexual practice, maybe including tsa lung. In his commentary translated by Jim Valby, Khenpo Zhenphen Oser writes that methods of channels and prana are still applied to get into the real condition. This isn't mentioned in the context of the two stages though.

It would be nice to have someone familiar with the Dzogchen root texts to mention what the others say about anuyoga.

I think ChNN emphasizes dzog rim without signs in his teaching, i.e. just using the root mantras; this is a valid way even according to other teachers, who on the other hand emphasize dzog rim with signs (tsa lung, tummo etc) more. Also, in ChNN's teaching, yantra yoga can fulfill everything that completion stage with sign does and is more connected to Dzogchen too.


I don't fully follow you, probably because I have only a tiny amount scholarly education. I thought Dzog rim without signs referred to Dzogchen and Mahamudra, not mantras.

I'm surprised to hear that thrul khor is regarded by any lama as a containing everything.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Sherlock » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:00 am

I am not a scholar at all, I'm just going by what I've read (and probably making many mistakes). :tongue:

If you read Appendix Five of Dalton's thesis, the dzog rim of anuyoga is more-or-less described without signs and without mention of tsa lung. There might be a reference to tsa lung practice in chapter 55 but even in Nubchen's commentary, he says that reference has to be made to "today's treatises on sexual union", however this isn't explicitly connected to dzog rim. This corresponds with the description of anuyoga in the Kunjed Gyalpo as not involving the "method and prajna of the father and mother" and just utilizing the essence mantra to complete the mandala. This is in the first volume of Jim Valby's translation.

I think it's likely that early on, up to the time when the Dzogchen root texts were being written, the dzog rim of anuyoga was without signs. Dzog rim with signs was probably borrowed from the sarma HYTs -- Malcolm once remarked here that there were some Nyingma texts complaining about sarma tantras with their new-fangled cakras and channels for instance and that the Khon Kilaya dzog rim is without signs too. ChNN often says that just continuing in the presence of the visualization can be considered dzog rim; in fact, he says dzog rim involving dissolving the visualization etc comes from yogatantra. ChNN's position is that it can help one experience the Dzogchen state, but it is anuyoga because you still transform whereas in atiyoga you do not.

Yantra yoga helps to move the karma-vayus into the central channel, which is the main goal of dzog rim with signs too AFAIK. It doesn't contain everything unless you think dzog rim contains everything but it will help to coordinate our energy to allow us to abide in the real condition, which is the real point, isn't it? ChNN's yantra yoga is also an ancillary practice for longde.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:03 am

Sherlock wrote:Well, the Kunjed Gyalpo talks about anuyoga just using the root mantras to "complete the mandala" (probably referring to the completion stage) and not involving "method and prajna", which might be a reference to sexual practice, maybe including tsa lung. In his commentary translated by Jim Valby, Khenpo Zhenphen Oser writes that methods of channels and prana are still applied to get into the real condition. This isn't mentioned in the context of the two stages though.

It would be nice to have someone familiar with the Dzogchen root texts to mention what the others say about anuyoga.

I think ChNN emphasizes dzog rim without signs in his teaching, i.e. just using the root mantras; this is a valid way even according to other teachers, who on the other hand emphasize dzog rim with signs (tsa lung, tummo etc) more. Also, in ChNN's teaching, yantra yoga can fulfill everything that completion stage with sign does and is more connected to Dzogchen too.


What you wrote before on anuyoga-sattvayoga and so on sounds very much like what teachers like Tulku Urgyen and Dilgo Khyentse been saying talking about the maha/anu/ati of each of the inner Tantras. Divided in this way sadhanas in the ati are referred to as the maha of ati and so on.

In a way I don't think that ChNNR teach very differently from other Nyingma lamas that emphasis Dzogchen but he is doing some truly innovative things when it comes to the path of methods. Perhaps the first glorious attempt at an western vajrayana.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Yudron » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:31 am

Forgive me, but sometimes I just imagine a few yogis in caves sharing very simple practices that seemed to to work for them with their ragged disciples, and a pack of scholars coming along centuries later making up incredibly complicated schemas justify them to religious scholars and hierarchs.

Me is :offtopic: :
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby Sherlock » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:27 am

heart wrote:
Sherlock wrote:Well, the Kunjed Gyalpo talks about anuyoga just using the root mantras to "complete the mandala" (probably referring to the completion stage) and not involving "method and prajna", which might be a reference to sexual practice, maybe including tsa lung. In his commentary translated by Jim Valby, Khenpo Zhenphen Oser writes that methods of channels and prana are still applied to get into the real condition. This isn't mentioned in the context of the two stages though.

It would be nice to have someone familiar with the Dzogchen root texts to mention what the others say about anuyoga.

I think ChNN emphasizes dzog rim without signs in his teaching, i.e. just using the root mantras; this is a valid way even according to other teachers, who on the other hand emphasize dzog rim with signs (tsa lung, tummo etc) more. Also, in ChNN's teaching, yantra yoga can fulfill everything that completion stage with sign does and is more connected to Dzogchen too.


What you wrote before on anuyoga-sattvayoga and so on sounds very much like what teachers like Tulku Urgyen and Dilgo Khyentse been saying talking about the maha/anu/ati of each of the inner Tantras. Divided in this way sadhanas in the ati are referred to as the maha of ati and so on.

In a way I don't think that ChNNR teach very differently from other Nyingma lamas that emphasis Dzogchen but he is doing some truly innovative things when it comes to the path of methods. Perhaps the first glorious attempt at an western vajrayana.

/magnus


I think ChNN is mainly going back to the root texts of Dzogchen (especially since he edited some of them). He doesn't explain all this in detail with citations usually of course, but it seems like his definitions and methods correspond more with them than with mainstream Nyingma.
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby heart » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:22 pm

Sherlock wrote:
heart wrote:
In a way I don't think that ChNNR teach very differently from other Nyingma lamas that emphasis Dzogchen but he is doing some truly innovative things when it comes to the path of methods. Perhaps the first glorious attempt at an western vajrayana.

/magnus


I think ChNN is mainly going back to the root texts of Dzogchen (especially since he edited some of them). He doesn't explain all this in detail with citations usually of course, but it seems like his definitions and methods correspond more with them than with mainstream Nyingma.


I am not so sure what mainstream Nyingma would be actually, do you? Nor do I have a comprehensive understanding of the whole spectra of ChNNR teachings so I can't really say. Just seem to fit the style and needs of people of this time and in this place as a good tertons teachings should do.

/magnus
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Re: popularity of self initiation in the various lineages

Postby kirtu » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:04 am

conebeckham wrote:Mariusz-
I don't think "Rigdzin Dupa" is anuyoga, per se. There may be "anuyoga" explanations of it, or means of approaching it that way--from my experience, it seems to have the hallmarks of a Mahayoga practice explicit in the sadhana itself.


I thought that Rigdzin Dupa was maha of ati.

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