Torma

[conebeckham]

Different Vajrakilaya sadhanas have different methods of torma offering.

Sangtik Purba, for example, requires a Glorious Torma which can signify both the deity, and the offering...and one adds "tebkyus," or little dough triangles, to the plate for each torma session. You can also just offer a plate of biscuits or cookies, daily--this is acceptable for daily practice for many yidams, as far as I can tell. Big, involved sadhanas like Zabdun Purba requires a lot of tormas, representing various deities and offerings.

I don't know the Yang-Pur practice really, aside from a glancing familiarity. I'd bet there's a permanent torma representing the deity, on the shrine. Maybe it's like Sangtik Purba, I don't know.

Rakta and Dudtsi or Men are usually refreshed, but not replaced....except perhaps if one is doing a big puja. You can buy rakta and dudtsi substances, or get them from a Lama. Dudtsi is fairly commonly distributed, but the rakta substance is harder to find. But you can find it for sale on-line, I just can't recall the vendor. For Dudtsi, you put the substance in with some alcohol--wine, vodka, whisky, whatever. For Rakta, I put the substance in with some strong black tea.

All of this is general advice, but such details are best learned from a master--each practice may have more precise requirements, etc.

As for embedding pictures, you click on the "Img" box at the top of the reply box, and you can either post a pic via url/address, or you can upload a pic from your computer.....

[conebeckham]

Old thread....just re-reading.....

One comment: In Sarma, what is called "Men" or medicine is the same as the Nangcho, or Inner offering, and for HYT practice it's usually found on each practitioner's table, and used the way Yudron noted the Loppon uses it during group rituals. It's also, occasionally, and depending on practice, tasted personally.

Many Sarma yidams and other deities don't have Rakta offerings. But of course many Sarma lineages incorporate terma and follow Nyingma ritual procedures sometimes. So, it's all very specific to the sadhana one is engaged with....and I am only familiar with the Kamtsang as practiced in Tsurluk and, to some degree, PalpungLuk.

I wanted to clarify that we don't have three kapalas, for dudtsi, men, and rakta, to my knowledge, for any practice. However, we do have a torma called the MenTor, or medicine torma, that is found, usually, between what we call the "dudtsi" and "rakta" kapalas. This procedure, as far as I know, comes from Nyingma termas that we practice in Karma Kamtsang.

[Fortyeightvows]

This is a great thread!
and I sort of hate to ask what feels like a dumb question, but...
Has anyone ever heard of smashing white bread into the shapes needed and then coloring it red?

[Grigoris]

This is a great thread!
and I sort of hate to ask what feels like a dumb question, but...
Has anyone ever heard of smashing white bread into the shapes needed and then coloring it red?

Yup! Bread (and wheat flour) tends to swell and deform. That's why oats are better. The finer ground the oats, the better!

[Terma]

Why a great and fascinating thread. I have read through it a few times now over the last few years. I have made torma's occasionally for tsok practices but now I am going to attempt to make them for daily practice. I am looking for some advice and tips from some of the expert torma makers here.

Each day, I am to offer 2 torma's. I can use "white" cookies as an alternative and I do have some on standby when in a pinch but I would like to try and make the torma's whenever I can. We were instructed that we could make a few days worth and refrigerate them. 3 days worth, actually. No refrigerating linger than that. So I would be making 6 at a time, every 4 days whenever possible.

At the moment I have been using barley flour, which seems to work well. I was using quick oats before but the flour is much more fine. The butter ornaments have always been a challenge, especially when my hands either get to warm for the butter, or too frozen from the water! Lol.

I have seen people using marzipan. Is this practical in my case? Meaning can the ornaments made from marzipan be refrigerated for a few days while still intact on the torma?

I will experiment with butter (or margarine) and the "ice bowl" some more as well but I was looking for other viable options. I often have the butter ornaments too thick, or else they crack as I'm forming it in the icey water.

I have watched one of my Lama's making torma's while we casually had some conversation. He makes it look so easy and he actually usually uses one hand to do the ornaments. Incredible.

Any tips, advice or ideas or quite welcome.

Thanks

[Lobsang Chojor]

I'm not expert by any means but one Geshe has been teaching me how to make them, he told me that European butter does not work well for the decorations altough I don't know why. People at our centre have used marzipan and even sugar flowers in the past, I don't know about keeping them in the fridge but I would imagine they can as fruit cake using marzipan can be refrigerated.

I have only used oats but I will try barley flour so thank you for that suggestion.

[Terma]

Well I've read that a few have made their own tsampa out of the barley flour. I don't think I will go to that extent though. I will try the marzipan for the ornaments. I have made some decent torma's using just butter in ice water but for me that is the time consuming part. In my lineage they actually show to mix some flour with the butter but maybe because it is North American butter, I haven't got to work yet. It just becomes sticky or else it metals to fast.

Thanks for your post, Lobsang Chojor.

[Lobsang Chojor]

I have just remember that Geshe-la mixed paraffin wax in with his butter to make it last longer in the heat so that might help.

I'm glad I could be of some help Terma.

[Grigoris]

Why a great and fascinating thread. I have read through it a few times now over the last few years. I have made torma's occasionally for tsok practices but now I am going to attempt to make them for daily practice. I am looking for some advice and tips from some of the expert torma makers here.

Each day, I am to offer 2 torma's. I can use "white" cookies as an alternative and I do have some on standby when in a pinch but I would like to try and make the torma's whenever I can. We were instructed that we could make a few days worth and refrigerate them. 3 days worth, actually. No refrigerating linger than that. So I would be making 6 at a time, every 4 days whenever possible.

At the moment I have been using barley flour, which seems to work well. I was using quick oats before but the flour is much more fine. The butter ornaments have always been a challenge, especially when my hands either get to warm for the butter, or too frozen from the water! Lol.

I have seen people using marzipan. Is this practical in my case? Meaning can the ornaments made from marzipan be refrigerated for a few days while still intact on the torma?

I will experiment with butter (or margarine) and the "ice bowl" some more as well but I was looking for other viable options. I often have the butter ornaments too thick, or else they crack as I'm forming it in the icey water.

I have watched one of my Lama's making torma's while we casually had some conversation. He makes it look so easy and he actually usually uses one hand to do the ornaments. Incredible.

Any tips, advice or ideas or quite welcome.

Thanks

Warning: not an expert.

Marzipan is great, but it is better to make the ornaments on the day, as it absorbs water in the fridge and loses it's shape and/or slides off the torma.

I tend to make a lot of torma dough each time, cut it into torma sized pieces and then deep freeze them separately in sandwich bags. The night before, I take out as many bags/pieces as I will need. It keeps forever in the deep freeze.

The small kartor that go into serkyem can be prepared in bulk, painted and then dried (on top of the radiator in winter, or in the sun in summer) and then stored in a sealed airtight container without refrigeration.

PS Oat flour is good too.

PPS I am guessing barley flour needs to be roasted, otherwise it may swell.

[Terma]

Why a great and fascinating thread. I have read through it a few times now over the last few years. I have made torma's occasionally for tsok practices but now I am going to attempt to make them for daily practice. I am looking for some advice and tips from some of the expert torma makers here.

Each day, I am to offer 2 torma's. I can use "white" cookies as an alternative and I do have some on standby when in a pinch but I would like to try and make the torma's whenever I can. We were instructed that we could make a few days worth and refrigerate them. 3 days worth, actually. No refrigerating linger than that. So I would be making 6 at a time, every 4 days whenever possible.

At the moment I have been using barley flour, which seems to work well. I was using quick oats before but the flour is much more fine. The butter ornaments have always been a challenge, especially when my hands either get to warm for the butter, or too frozen from the water! Lol.

I have seen people using marzipan. Is this practical in my case? Meaning can the ornaments made from marzipan be refrigerated for a few days while still intact on the torma?

I will experiment with butter (or margarine) and the "ice bowl" some more as well but I was looking for other viable options. I often have the butter ornaments too thick, or else they crack as I'm forming it in the icey water.

I have watched one of my Lama's making torma's while we casually had some conversation. He makes it look so easy and he actually usually uses one hand to do the ornaments. Incredible.

Any tips, advice or ideas or quite welcome.

Thanks

Warning: not an expert.

Marzipan is great, but it is better to make the ornaments on the day, as it absorbs water in the fridge and loses it's shape and/or slides off the torma.

I tend to make a lot of torma dough each time, cut it into torma sized pieces and then deep freeze them separately in sandwich bags. The night before, I take out as many bags/pieces as I will need. It keeps forever in the deep freeze.

The small kartor that go into serkyem can be prepared in bulk, painted and then dried (on top of the radiator in winter, or in the sun in summer) and then stored in a sealed airtight container without refrigeration.

PS Oat flour is good too.

PPS I am guessing barley flour needs to be roasted, otherwise it may swell.

Thanks for your response, Greg.

I never thought about the barley flour swelling. I will do a test run, otherwise I will try the oat flour. Quick oats did work for me before but the flour is much more fine.

I am lucky, right across the street they have a "bulk" store where I can buy the flour/oats and they just so happen to sell tubes of Marzipan as well in their cake section.

I was actually thinking the same thing as you, that I would prepare 6 torma's ahead of time and do the ornaments with the marzipan each day right before I put the torma's on the shrine.

Good advice on both accounts, thank you!

[pemachophel]

For the ornaments, even many, many Tibetans these days use fondant which they bring back from Bangkok or Hong Kong. Fondant is a a pre-made cake decorating confection made out of butter, sugar, and corn starch. I comes in different colors and keeps when refrigerated in tightly sealed packages for a long, long time. When it's been refrigerated, 10-15 seconds in a microwave oven warms it up and it is pliable again. If it gets too hard due to storage, you can heat it in a microwave and knead in more butter. I haven't used anything else for torma ornaments in years.

It the big monlams in Bodhgaya, I believe they mix in paraffin or wax to the fondant to make it last even longer in the Indian heat. I've tried this and it's good, but more work and, in my climate, unnecessary. There's a film you can get that shows how to mix in the wax to the fondant. I believe it is just titled "Torma."

[amanitamusc]

For the ornaments, even many, many Tibetans these days use fondant which they bring back from Bangkok or Hong Kong. Fondant is a a pre-made cake decorating confection made out of butter, sugar, and corn starch. I comes in different colors and keeps when refrigerated in tightly sealed packages for a long, long time. When it's been refrigerated, 10-15 seconds in a microwave oven warms it up and it is pliable again. If it gets too hard due to storage, you can heat it in a microwave and knead in more butter. I haven't used anything else for torma ornaments in years.

It the big monlams in Bodhgaya, I believe they mix in paraffin or wax to the fondant to make it last even longer in the Indian heat. I've tried this and it's good, but more work and, in my climate, unnecessary. There's a film you can get that shows how to mix in the wax to the fondant. I believe it is just titled "Torma."

http://honestcooking.com/making-your-own-fondant/