Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

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DGA
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by DGA »

Paul wrote:
Caodemarte wrote:Comment: "The claim behind the question is fascinating, because it reveals a latent - I don't want to call it racism, but - prejudice against Westerners."

Response: "Prejudice against someone because of their race is precisely racism. "

Just a note the Westerners (a term used to refer to those who identity with the culture stemming from the Roman Empire, particularity the Western Empire) don't belong to one race or sub-race as we all part of the human race. So I would stick to the words prejudice or bigotry rather than use the term racism here.
Westerner is usually just a lazy way of saying caucasian. Same with Eastern usually meaning someone who's either East Asian or Indian. Totally imprecise terms, really.
:good:

I don't think it's really about how one identifies, either. To give a banal example, I don't identify as a "Westerner," but I've been interpellated as one by others.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Caodemarte »

"Westerner is usually just a lazy way of saying caucasian."

The casual willingness to assume that non-Caucasian "Westerners" simply don't count or don't have to be bothered noticing if you feel lazy is why it is offensive.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by DGA »

Caodemarte wrote:"Westerner is usually just a lazy way of saying caucasian."

The casual willingness to assume that non-Caucasian "Westerners" simply don't count or don't have to be bothered noticing if you feel lazy is why it is offensive.
Respectfully: I think you are missing the point.

The category "Westerner" presumes whiteness already. When one says "Westerner" in this context, it already signifies a white person. I don't think Paul endorses this position; I do not think he is a bigot. I also think he's right to push back against the category "Westerner" for this and other reasons.

It's precisely because people of color in the "western" world and everywhere else do count that I don't have much use for the "westerner" category. relevant:

https://books.google.com/books?id=G0yPE ... &q&f=false
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Caodemarte »

DGA said, "The category "Westerner" presumes whiteness already. When one says "Westerner" in this context, it already signifies a white person."

Wow.

We run in different circles if that is a common usage in your's. I have never heard the term Westerner used to mean "only white Westerners." I have only heard the term Western Buddhist to mean people from the West who practice Buddhism without any reference to race.

Does this mean blacks or Asians whose ancestors arrived in the US, for example, before the country was founded and may have included the people who made that culture are presumed not to be Westerners? By whom?
If an American , for example, goes to Asia or Africa, wether black or white or Asian, that person will be called a Westerner, a European, or an American (if the citizenship is known).

Look, I have no idea what is in anybody's heart or if there is or is not any racist feeling there. But can't you see how this usage and presumption is really offensive, even if thoughtless?
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Paul »

Caodemarte wrote:We run in different circles if that is a common usage in your's. I have never heard the term Westerner used to mean "only white Westerners." I have only heard the term Western Buddhist to mean people from the West who practice Buddhism without any reference to race.
If you pay attention over years, you'll begin to see that 'Westerner' when used in this question is a placeholder for white and middle class Buddhists, with lots of other weird assumptions such as these people having been damaged by exposure to Christianity somehow. It's also used as a weird kind of self-flagellation process. If you pay attention to this process you'll see that racially black, Asian or anyone else are never really considered in this 'debate' - they do actually get overlooked. Same with those that are from poorer backgrounds as they don't meet the hidden assumptions of the question.

If anyone wants to actually answer the question they just need to look at Erik Pema Kunsang, Jim Valby, Malcolm Smith, Gerardo Abboud, Dimitry Ermakov, or Fabio Andrico. Maybe even King Milinda. The answer is clearly 'yes'.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by boda »

Paul wrote:If you pay attention over years, you'll begin to see that 'Westerner' when used in this question is a placeholder for white and middle class Buddhists, with lots of other weird assumptions such as these people having been damaged by exposure to Christianity somehow.
Westerners are also too darn individualistic, skeptical, and corrupted my modernity.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Paul »

boda wrote:
Paul wrote:If you pay attention over years, you'll begin to see that 'Westerner' when used in this question is a placeholder for white and middle class Buddhists, with lots of other weird assumptions such as these people having been damaged by exposure to Christianity somehow.
Westerners are also too darn individualistic, skeptical, and corrupted my modernity.
Maybe the self-appointed cognoscenti are.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...with lots of other weird assumptions such as these people having been damaged by exposure to Christianity somehow.
More like the assumption that people have been damaged by the collapse of Christianity and having it replaced with scientific materialism.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by boda »

The collapse of Christianity, how did I miss that. :tongue:
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

boda wrote:The collapse of Christianity, how did I miss that. :tongue:
How old are you? Might have been before your time.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Paul »

smcj wrote:
...with lots of other weird assumptions such as these people having been damaged by exposure to Christianity somehow.
More like the assumption that people have been damaged by the collapse of Christianity and having it replaced with scientific materialism.
Scientific materialism has a distinctly Christian pedigree. It's not the opposite if Christianity, it's an offshoot of it.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Aemilius »

Paul wrote:
smcj wrote:
...with lots of other weird assumptions such as these people having been damaged by exposure to Christianity somehow.
More like the assumption that people have been damaged by the collapse of Christianity and having it replaced with scientific materialism.
Scientific materialism has a distinctly Christian pedigree. It's not the opposite if Christianity, it's an offshoot of it.
The atheistic world view, in different forms and interpretations, existed in India (as the Sramana movement of jains, buddhists, ajivikas, etc..) and in Europe (as the philosophies in Greece and Rome) long before the christian era. Scientific materialism as a form agnosticism is older that christianity.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Caodemarte »

Paul said, "If you pay attention to this process you'll see that racially black, Asian or anyone else are never really considered in this 'debate' - they do actually get overlooked. Same with those that are from poorer backgrounds as they don't meet the hidden assumptions of the question. "

Maybe we should challenge the hidden assumptions, and in this thread openly stated, that only (non-poor, apparently) whites are Westerners (admittedly a sloppy term, like race). Otherwise it is much like hearing that Obama is not the real President because of the assumption that only "whites" are real Americans. It is complacent and wildly offensive. Or we could just openly say we are concerned solely about one specific race and class in a closed club.

What does it say about Buddhists who keep casually using these "assumptions"? Maybe those who do are not truly practicing the Dharma, answering the OP.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Jesse »

Paul wrote:Scientific materialism has a distinctly Christian pedigree. It's not the opposite if Christianity, it's an offshoot of it.
That's actually an interesting theory, it makes sense since scientific materialism has become the anti-christian theism, it's a radical rejection of christianity. So there's no doubt they are linked. I've always had the feeling most 'angry atheists', are indeed suffering from a rejection of their spiritual ancestory, with nothing to replace their spirituality they become angry, deny any spiritual aspect to life and close off that part of their lives using cold logic as a sheil-wall.
Caodemarte wrote:Paul said, "If you pay attention to this process you'll see that racially black, Asian or anyone else are never really considered in this 'debate' - they do actually get overlooked. Same with those that are from poorer backgrounds as they don't meet the hidden assumptions of the question. "

Maybe we should challenge the hidden assumptions that only non-poor whites are Westerners. It is much like hearing that Obama is not the real President because of the assumption that only "whites" are real Americans. It is complacent and wildly offensive. Or we could just openly say we are concerned solely about one specific race and class in a closed club.

What does it say about Buddhists if they are happy to keep casually using these "assumptions"?
It says Buddhists are human, and prone to all the same mistakes, bad behavior and poor reasoning skills of the rest of humanity. Then again it's also a pretty big generalization. I doubt 'all' Buddhist's from asian countries use the term this way.

It does however make sense to generalize a group of people by their cultural upbringing for certain purposes. Most westerners are coming from a christian country, where spiritual materialism has become synonymous with truth and intelligence. So to make sense of the western psyche you need to take these thing's into account.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Lazy_eye »

The West has been intersecting with Buddhism for, oh, only about 20-25 centuries:

Greco-Buddhism
Buddhism in the Hellenistic era
Milindapanha
Greeks in the Tipitaka
Greco-Buddhism Discussion Thread
Hellenism in Gandharan Buddhism

Considering that the Hellenistic world was one of the main vectors for the diffusion of Mahayana, it's a little ironic to see the question "can Westerners really be Dharma practitioners?" on a Mahayana-Vajrayana forum! :shrug:
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Caodemarte »

Jesse said, "It does however make sense to generalize a group of people by their cultural upbringing for certain purposes."

I agree, I was just genuinely shocked by the statement that "Western culture" included only whites and surprised that it was commonly assumed here this meant non-poor whites at that. I have lived in a wide variety of places and nowhere else have I heard Western used with a qualification that the non-white or poor who come from, were raised in, live in, and contributed to the West do not share a Western cultural upbringing and are in some way foreign to the West.

I am not the dharma police and I understand that this is mostly laziness, not necessarily hatred, but it is precisely the casual and lazy inbuilt assumption that is offensive. As Jesse said, this just shows that Buddhists (including me) are as subject to human evils as anybody else.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by DGA »

Caodemarte wrote:I was just genuinely shocked by the statement that "Western culture" included only whites and surprised that it was commonly assumed here this meant non-poor whites at that.
You persist in missing the point. The category "western culture" makes these presumptions itself. That is how "the west" defines itself--in contrast to the Other (which is to say the rest of the world). It's a politically-laden term from the start.

I'm surprised that you are surprised to hear this. How is this news to you?

I encourage you to direct your outrage at the injustices in the world, rather than at those who have the courage to point out how those injustices are presumed by the very categories that are used to describe the world we inhabit.
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Paul »

Caodemarte wrote:I agree, I was just genuinely shocked by the statement that "Western culture" included only whites and surprised that it was commonly assumed here this meant non-poor whites at that. I have lived in a wide variety of places and nowhere else have I heard Western used with a qualification that the non-white or poor who come from, were raised in, live in, and contributed to the West do not share a Western cultural upbringing and are in some way foreign to the West.
Reading this, I'm not sure you've understood any point I've made.

My point is is that the (clichéd) debate "can Westerners really be dharma practitioners" is usually a weird PC game played by a particular group of liberal, middle class white Buddhists. It is a form of laziness as it's looking for an excuse not to bother and also has a whole bunch of racial and cultural baggage in it. The answer to the question is very clearly 'yes' given the brilliant examples of many Western teachers, translators yogis etc. There is no reason at all that a person cannot really practice dharma, especially if we don't confuse practice with pretending to be some stereotype of a Tibetan or whatever. It is reminiscent of the 'California Dharma' that Tsoknyi Rinpoche warns against.

I am very fortunate that the Western Buddhists I know in person just get on with it. A large number are ordinary northern working class people and give this kind of silliness the short shrift it deserves.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Caodemarte »

Well, that's odd. DGA, you seem not to have read my comments or the other comments.

The surprise I felt was at the explanation that Western Buddhist on this forum is commonly used to mean non-poor white only and that others are not considered Western Buddhists by definition. It is like reading a Christian board and learning that Christian was used to refer on that board only to non-poor white Christians. If you only want to talk about non-poor, white Western Buddhists (or black, rich Christians for that matter) then say so. Don't just assume that Westerners are only non-poor whites (which is the assumption I was citing) and expect that assumption to be universal. If you don't like the terms Western or Buddhist then don't use them, but please don't imply that non-whites in the West are not part of the common culture.


BTW, because of my professional interests I spent some years examining the ways different populations with a shared history looked at other populations. "Western culture " or "Westerner" obviously implies a comparison with something else, as words do, in this case non-Western culture or somebody not from the West, and is a gross generalization (hence I don't usually use it, but I understand that it is sometimes a useful grouping for specific purposes as long as you remember it is not a real thing with defined borders). The West originally referred to the creation of the Western Empire in distinction to the Eastern. Hence the term Easterner or Eastern culture referred to something to do with the Eastern Empire, and with Russia when Moscow became the Third Rome. It was not a definition based on race, but administrative division So even in its origin the term has a political meaning that changes over time, but is not a racial distinction. There is no implication of race and certainly no built in presumption in the phrase that race or genetics has much to do with this. Those modernist racists who argue that Western culture is race are not mainstream and have to re-define the term Western to make that argument.

Pushkin, despite being the descendant of a black slave, is commonly considered by Russians the historic embodiment of Russian culture. It is culture that matters here, not race (however defined). So in Africa or Asia American blacks are called Westerners because they come from Western culture. Even when that is intended as an insult, it is not a racially based insult. People have plenty of other terms for those.
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Paul
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Re: Can Westerners REALLY be Dharma practitioners?

Post by Paul »

This, from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, is possibly the best thing I have ever read on Dharma and culture:
There is a matter of principle which regards the teaching which is that all an individual must always understand it well through his own culture. But to take the teachings through your culture doesn't mean to transform or change the teaching. This is something that must be quite clearly present. Because when we learn a teaching, we apply it, and we enter into knowledge of this teaching. When one has acquired knowledge of a teaching, one becomes a kind of master of the teaching or one of the proprietors of the teaching. A person who follows the teaching also carries the teaching forward.

Certainly the teaching is not a matter of a race of people. It's not a party, a political party. So how can the teaching continue? It continues through those who know it and apply it. They are the carriers of the teaching. In this case, an individual who knows the teaching automatically becomes someone responsible for the teaching. In that case, if the teaching is misapplied, it ceases to function and to work. To work in the interest of the teaching means to work for a long term future without any possible deadline or horizon, because the human karmic vision will always continue. And the teaching is something that serves all human beings and serves all beings.

So you mustn't begin in a mistaken way. If you make a mistake, this leaves a trace which will then multiply in the future. If you are asked or obliged to explain, to teach something about the teaching, the first thing you do is observe yourself. Look at yourself carefully and discover whether you know the answer to the question or not. It's really true that in the Dzogchen teaching the first thing taught, employing the example of the mirror, is observing oneself. If you have a direct experience, you then know, really know, what it is you have to explain, communicate, transmit.

If you don't know, if one doesn't have the experience, using or being helped by some words you heard or some book you've read, you can carry the matter in an entirely wrong direction. So it's extremely important first of all, up front, to understand well and clearly, the meaning of the teaching. And to do that you don't base yourself on external matters, what appears, but you try to penetrate to the interior and depth of meaning of what is being communicated. A person like Buddha Shakyamuni who manifested humanly is said to have given the teaching in three vehicles. But there's also a chronicle of six Buddhas, one appearing in each of the six lokas. It's also told that the Buddha had prior incarnations, for example, that he manifested as an elephant to teach the teaching to the elephants. What this means is that a person like the Buddha, a realized being, entered into the culture of those to whom he was teaching. When the Buddha was illuminated, he no longer lived within the limits of any given culture. He no longer had a merely personal way of seeing, because he was beyond any such limitations. But if one has to relate to people in order to teach them, one has to enter within the culture and limitations of outlook of the people one is speaking to. So if the Buddha taught in India, he entered into Indian culture. Had the Buddha lived in China, he surely would have presented himself and his teaching differently. If the Buddha had come to America, we have no idea how he would have presented himself. He might have manifested as a black cloud. Because one has to manifest and present oneself in a way that people can believe in, and by which they're convinced, and which they can relate to.

Many things that we find are related to the epoch in which the Buddha transmitted his teachings, for example, the way in which the Bodhisattvas are presented and visually presented in the Mahayana Sutras. And this is also used in the visualizations of the Yogatantra. An image like that of Avalokiteshvara or Vajrasattva or an idea like that of the Sambhogakaya as being full of the wealth and abundance of wisdom, these dimensions are presented in the costume, in the manner, of an Indian prince of the Buddha's time. And this represents the method that's used on that path. And this is not necessary to change and transform. It may well be linked directly to the moment of transformation and which was first presented. We can use that idea. We know very well that one cannot invent the mandala. If mandala were merely a matter of an art or art form, one could certainly invent it. But if the mandala is the description of transmission of transformation of an actual manifestation, then one can't change or invent that. This means the method inherent in that task.

When one follows a teaching, that teaching is transmitting a knowledge. And this knowledge is developed through the method of its path. When a method is given, you can't change that method. You can't substitute Vajrasattva with Julius Caesar for example. Because this image is linked with that transmission, part of that transmission, from the beginning, from the way it has always been given. This is not what we mean by culture. Culture of the individual means all of his habits and attitudes and our habits and attitudes. Our way of being is linked with body, voice and mind. And this attitude is a way of understanding, can be a way of understanding the teaching and the path.

For example in Tibet, there were numberless usages, that way of living, that way of doing things. And that type of culture was adapted by the teaching. This is what we mean by culture. For example, a Tibetan will go into a temple and the first thing he'll do is a prostration. If he passes a temple, he'll turn so that it's on his right. But that's not the path. That's not a method of the path. That's an attitude and an expression of habit which is linked to an intention, a good intention, a desire to accumulate merit. How an individual behaves when he meets a master and when one follows a teaching, what is one's attitude and way of behaving, all this we call culture. The Tibetans have a system of their own as do the Indians. But also the Chinese and other nations have their characteristics. We mustn't confuse this with the path. Because many westerners go to India and learn this culture and are very satisfied to have learned it, and come back bringing it with them. I'm not saying that you can't study that culture. I'm not saying that you can't learn it. I'm not saying that you can't bring it back and make use of it. You can use it in your practice. But it's not so very easy to learn and take in the entire culture of another country. We've already got lots to do just to meet our obligations, to obtain food and shelter and survive. If you have only a small time that you can commit to the teachings, and if instead of dedicating that time to learning something concrete and useable as practice, you devote it to learning and assimilating a foreign culture, that's really a waste of time.

In this case you have to know how to use your own culture, because every individual has his own culture. And your own culture, your own attitude and way of understanding, is very easy for you and very near at hand. When you know how to use your own culture and understand through it, then it's much, much easier to get to the actual meaning of the teaching. But you mustn't confuse this with changing or transforming the teaching.

Many people think that the way of teaching in the Buddhist tradition, whether it be Sutric or Tantric, is very difficult and too complicated to transmit to westerners. And so a splendid idea is born. So let's mix it up a bit with western psychology and we can get rid of all the name and titles and labels and the forms of the teaching. And there are those who do this nowadays. This is perfectly characteristic of our human condition. Either we go too far left or too far right. Since we remain always in the dualistic situation, we only know these two excesses. We don't know how to take the third way. And according to me, that's just no good at all. Because the teaching is not just philosophy. If it were just philosophy, if it were just a matter of getting a notion into your mind, then it would be fine.

But many of the people who are following the teaching are actually seeking some kind of truth. That is to say, they're seeking a real answer to their need for realization. And a teaching possesses its transmission. Through transmission one develops toward realization. It's not sufficient to just jabber about something and multiply our ideas and fecundate our ideas. The teaching must not be carried, must not be brought down, to the level of duping people. If we're talking about a teaching we have to make explicit and make understood what the principle of that teaching is. We know very well that in the teaching there exist hundreds of different methods. If the teaching can penetrate into ·the culture of the individual, it's not that there aren't other ways it could proceed. This notion of transforming the teaching, of modernizing the teaching or changing it in some way, comes from insufficient knowledge of the teaching and of all its various ways of being used.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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