Oracles and taking trance...

Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby Indrajala » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:41 pm

Mediums seem to exist in most historical cultures. In some cases they have status, in others they have to go underground.

It is a worldly practice, but perhaps quite useful. I imagine, though, the danger is in dealing with malicious or deceptive spirits.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby ngodrup » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:54 pm

Oracles are only one aspect of the activity of protectors in Tibetan Buddhism.
There are peaceful, blissful and wrathful protectors. Some a 'nature gods' who
are under vow to protect Dharma, and help practitioners; others are Bodhisattvas
or Buddhas. Some are historical figures who have a protective, healing, or obstacle
removing role-- King Gesar of Ling would be an example of a historical figure.

Some of these beings work through trance mediums, others work through
various divination methods. Sometimes the activity is very swift and obvious
other times subtle. All lineages have protectors associated with them, so any
Tibetan Buddhist practitioner has some relationship with protectors, especially
the context of tantra.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby plwk » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:02 pm

I have a Q though... would you happen to know if Je Tsongkhapa himself allowed this practice to carry on in his lineage? If so, what are the justifications and in which text?
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby ngodrup » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:45 pm

What's unclear? Je Tsongkahpa used a medium to communicate with Manjushri.
He allowed it because it works and was helpful for him, it would be helpful for others.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:25 pm

I thought in the sadhanas Je Tsongkapa was considered a direct nirmanakaya of Manjushiri.

E.g.:

MIG-ME TSE-WAY TER-CHEN CHEN-RE-ZIG
DRI-ME KYEN-PAI WANG-PO JAM-PEL YANG
DUE-PUNG MA-LUE JOM-ZE SANG-WAY DAK
GANG-CHEN KHE-PAI TSUK-GYEN TSONG-KHA-PA
LOB-SANG DRAK-PAI SHAB-LA SOL-WA DEB


You are Avalokitshvara – a great treasure of unaimed affection,
Manjushri – a commander of flawless wisdom,
Vajrapani – a destroyer of all hordes of demonic forces,
Tsongkhapa – the crown jewel of the erudite masters of the Land of Snows,
At your feet, Losang-dragpa, we make you requests.

Or:

O pervading Lord Manjushri-vajra, the Opponent of Yama,
O Lama Je Tsongkhapa, the Father who embodies all Conquerors,
And your Sons together with the lamas of the lineage,
Please bestow the two kinds of siddhi.

Etc.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:46 pm

Interesting documentary on the Dalai Lama's oracles...

phpBB [video]
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby Yudron » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:13 pm

Cool video, asunthatneversets. Unfortunately, I didn't notice til the end it was put up on Youtube by a Shugden person, with links to their site.

You probably didn't notice that.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby zangskar » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:29 am

Very interesting video indeed. :twothumbsup:
Here's a full version (not in parts) and not from the controversial user.
phpBB [video]

Best wishes
Lars
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby catmoon » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:07 am

2 cents worth....

It amazes me that anybody gives any of this any credence at all.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby ngodrup » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:27 am

Catmoon.

Why should one doubt?
Faith and doubt are both individual phenomena.
Those who practice eventually encounter some strange
thing that doesn't fit into one's a priori paradigm. Why
should we then assume that our culturally conditioned
rationale is the true one, any more than assume that
Tibetan cultural rationale is the true one? If the sources
are credible, or we see things with our own eyes that contradict
then we have a variety of pramana approaches to ascertain
valid cognition for things outside of our gross, heavy, materialist
habit. If we don't believe in intangible wisdom phenomena,
or various in-between phenomena, what hope is there for
transformation? At least we can entertain the possibility that
such "strange phenomena" might be real in some sense.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby Tenso » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:33 am

catmoon wrote:2 cents worth....

It amazes me that anybody gives any of this any credence at all.

How can you be so sure?
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby heart » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:01 am

catmoon wrote:2 cents worth....

It amazes me that anybody gives any of this any credence at all.


I been to a oracle session in India once. I thought it was going to be completely ridiculous, but it was quite powerful and even a little scary. The answers provided were amazing. The oracle, an old woman, was very strange and kind and didn't have a clue what she had said during the session afterwards. In fact the monk helping her completely ignored her ideas when they listened to the tape of the session to find out the unclear parts. There might of course be quite of number of charlatans that do this, so it is a good idea to be careful.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby username » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:54 am

In the presence of the glorious Dalai Lama & magnificent Karmapa: Khandro La Tseringma, Nechung, and Gadong, State Oracles of Tibet:
phpBB [video]


Khandro La: teaching on Wisdom and Compassion:
phpBB [video]


Khandro La: Calling the Lama from Afar prayer:
phpBB [video]


Lama Zopa Rinpoche's visit to Maratika Cave with Khandro la:
phpBB [video]


Khandro La's biographical interview, in PDF format:
http://www.mandalamagazine.org/wp-conte ... Dakini.pdf
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby Caz » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:10 am

catmoon wrote:2 cents worth....

It amazes me that anybody gives any of this any credence at all.


I know some people who regularly get to see a certain Oracle whom has always been highly regarded, When one person asked for advise many years previously to a different oracle but of the same deity and asked again the same question many years later the Deity replied the exact same thing that they had spoke of many years previously and made apparent that they should fulfil this advise. Seeing it up close and personal and testing authentic Oracles is very moving indeed. :thumbsup:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:56 am

I love His Holiness!
At many points during the trance ceremony he seems more interested in reading his book than all the fanfare!
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:52 pm

Yudron wrote:Cool video, asunthatneversets. Unfortunately, I didn't notice til the end it was put up on Youtube by a Shugden person, with links to their site.

You probably didn't notice that.


Ah didn't see that! Otherwise yes I would've found a different link, interesting though, I'm curious as to what the motivation would be behind an organization/individual in support of that cause essentially sponsoring/promoting this video. I'll leave the extent of my prying with that question though and let that sleeping dog lie. Lie in both senses of the word.
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Re: Oracles and taking trance...

Postby Steveyboy » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:36 am

plwk wrote:I have a Q though... would you happen to know if Je Tsongkhapa himself allowed this practice to carry on in his lineage? If so, what are the justifications and in which text?


ma Tsongkhapa doesn't need to approve of it as the practice came from Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa approves and respects Guru Rinpoche very much. On the other hand, the Dalai Lama encourages this practice and consults Nechung on state matters always. As you can see through the various videos the other people have posted here. It is an authentic practice and approved by the Dalai Lama and many other High Lamas.
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