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A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries? - Dhamma Wheel

A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:49 pm

Sorry for another one but i have another seperate question



Id like to get some advice and opinions from everyone


Can ones practice be frutiful (and lead to nibbana) without referring to the commentaries?

I only ask because I hardly ever look at them anymore i just rely on my experience, the suttas and Dhamma talks however ive noticed that other people seem to use them a lot and some stress there use so i wanted to get some advice if other people think its wise not to use them?


:anjali:
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Topic changed for clarity
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Re: Another Commentary topic

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:26 pm

In my opinion it is important to either be familiar with them yourself or to have a teacher who is familiar with them. The suttas are simply too vague in too many places to rely on them alone. Vagueness leave plenty of room for an unawakened practitioner to insert his own deluded interpretations. Never forget that the reason we suffer is because of delusion; the reason the Buddha taught is because he was free from delusion. We need to rely on the teachings of others if we are to get free from this maze.

People who believe all they need to awaken is read some suttas are, in my opinion, allowing themselves to be lead by their pride. Of course, such a person will read this statement and their pride will not let them believe it. :shrug:
- Peter


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Re: Another Commentary topic

Postby clw_uk » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:23 pm

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retrofuturist
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Re: Another Commentary topic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:58 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Another Commentary topic

Postby cooran » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:08 am

Hello Retro,

Can you tell us about some of them, and how you know they were Noble, and how you know they were never aware of the explanations in the Commentaries?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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Re: Another Commentary topic

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:17 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:34 am

The first five Arahants :jumping:



:anjali:
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Ben
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby Ben » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:52 am

I think you forget that those first disciples had extraordinary kamma and a stock of paramitas that not only gave them direct access to the Buddha, but a mind so developed that with the vipassana developed while listening to one discourse, liberation.
I think its also a mistake to compare ourselves with the Buddha's first disciples. Not only for the reason I gave above. These people who arose in a culture very similar to the Buddha, spoke his language, and were given discourses tailored to their state of mind and their personal inclinations. We are far removed from those particular contexts and we view the words of the Buddha through a matrix of conditionings, translation problems and our own delusions.

Having said that, let me add that the commentarial tradition began while the Buddha was alive. Often when monks approached the Buddha, He would give a brief discourse which would then be elucidated by Sariputta and MahaKaccana. On a number of occassions, the Buddha praised the explanation of the Dhamma by his senior monks and said that if he were to explain it himself it would not be any different. Nyaniponika Thera in 'Abhidhamma Studies' also asserts that while the core of the Abhidhamma Mantikas were probably composed by the Buddha, it was Sariputta and Sariputta's students who fleshed it out. The Commentarial tradition began with the Buddha and his senior disciples as a method to explain the Dhamma to those who were less realised or did not have the paramitas to penetrate the Dhamma unassisted.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:14 am

Well said retro, :goodpost:
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:27 am


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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:30 am

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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:42 am


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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby Ben » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:44 am

Retro

I sense in your post an assumption that we accept the commentaries in blind faith. I am not suggesting that. I think that we continually test the Dhamma by practicing it and analyzing it and continually comparing and contrasting our own experiences with material in the tipitaka and the commentaries. If there was a serious error in the commentaries than I think that it would become the subject of ongoing discourse and correction as highly realised individuals found that their right understanding was out of phase with the erroneous commentary. An example of this was Venerable Ledi Sayadaw who corrected earlier commentaries of the Abhidhamma in his Paramatthadipani Tika and other works.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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tiltbillings
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:50 am

clw_uk,

I do not know if you have read any actual commentaries,so here is a commentaries of the Satipatthana Sutta. Take some time; read through it carefully.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html

Commentaries may not be the final word, but they are important word.

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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:58 am

Greetings Ben,

No, no such assumption made... my point was expressed solely within the confines of the topic at hand.

My perspective is much like that of Tilt, "Commentaries may not be the final word, but they are important word."

Certainly not critically important though to the point that stream-entry could not be obtained without recourse to them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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clw_uk
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:04 am

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tiltbillings
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:09 am

Read through the Satipatthana Sutta line-by-line commentary. I think you will find it useful. Also, it is worth knowing exactly what it is that is being talked about when commentaries are being discussed.

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Ben
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby Ben » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:09 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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cooran
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Re: A fruitful practice and nibbana, without the commentaries?

Postby cooran » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:27 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---


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