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understood, abandoned, realized and developed - Dhamma Wheel

understood, abandoned, realized and developed

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
8fold
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understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby 8fold » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:55 pm

I would appreciate thoughts on the following from the first discourse.

The noble truth of suffering should be understood. This makes sense. Seems to fit.

The noble truth on the orgin of suffering should be abandoned. Does this mean that craving that leads to renewed existance...craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existance and craving for extermination should be abandoned? Or does it mean the "noble truth of the origin of suffering" should be abandoned? How does one abandon a noble truth?

Similarly, the noble truth of the cessationof suffering should be realized. Should we realize the remainderless fading away of craving...nonattachment? Or do we realize "the noble truth of the senstiaon of suffering"? Almost seems to fit.

The noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering is to be developed. Do we develop the path or the noble truth?

In review, it seems like my biggest confusion lies on the issue raised with the 2nd noble truth above...not so much with the other three. Maybe its a translation thing. Any thoughts? Thanks.

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Pondera
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby Pondera » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:22 am

"The noble truth of suffering should be understood." This is the case whether you read the whole sentence or only one part. "The noble truth of the origin of suffering should be abandoned". The origin of suffering should be abandoned, not the truth.
"The noble truth of the cessation of suffering should be realized." The truth of the cessation of suffering should be realized, not simply that the cessation of craving is the cessation of suffering; for anyone can put it in their minds that quid pro quot the cessation of suffering is the cessation of craving and the cessation of craving is the cessation of suffering; without ever having come to any understanding of the truth behind the logic. In fact one must understand the realization of the truth pertaining to all things concerning the cessation of suffering; which differs from mere recitation. If you develop the truth of the path, then you develop the path itself. You cannot develop the truth of the path without going forth along the path. Hence the truth of the path, and the actual development of the path go hand in hand. So, the interpretation in this regard makes no difference. The interpretation of the third noble truth distinguishes realization from mere belief. The interpretation of the second noble truth must simply accepted as fact, but in regards to its object i.e. the tendency which is to crave -that must be forsaken. Go ahead, if you wish, and forsake the truth; but then you have no second truth. And the noble truth of suffering is just to be understood.

8fold
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby 8fold » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:34 am

Thank you, Pondera. I like the points you made.

But why say: The noble truth of the origin of suffering should be abandoned?

Why not just say: the origin of suffering should be abandoned?

Nicro
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby Nicro » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:16 am


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Pondera
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby Pondera » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:56 pm

The way this four-fold formula is applied goes along the lines of:

"The Four Noble Truths should be practised and thought upon in four ways. The first is for understanding, the second is to be abandoned, the third for realization, and the fourth for development. It is in these four ways that each of the four noble truths should be approached and understood."

That isn't the passage itself. The wording of the passage is essential. I know this passage. It doesn't explicitly say that the first noble truth should be understood, the second abandoned, and so on. The passage is merely an addition to the noble truths. So we don't merely say: The origin of suffering should be abandoned, because the actual reason for the way in which this passage summarizes or succinctly describes the four noble truths is very particular to the wording of that specific passage. The passage is meant to be understood in context outside of the noble truths. You can't actually paraphrase the noble truths together with this passage (which I admit I do not have time to locate). This saying, that the noble truths are to be understood in four ways is merely an additional thing put together with the statement of the truths for the purposes of memory and learning. So re-writing the noble truths with this passage (which I can't admit to knowing where it is and such as...) is not meant to be inserted directly into the phrasing of the noble truths. Look specifically at the exact phrasing of each passage and you will see why the noble truth of the origin of suffering is understood for the sake of abandonment in accordance with what the passage originally says. I will find that passage at a later time to make my self clear. \

-Pondera

8fold
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby 8fold » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:20 am

...so suffering should be developed?

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Pondera
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby Pondera » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:59 pm

Suffering should be understood. The Eight Fold Path should be developed.

Regards,
Pondera

8fold
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby 8fold » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:21 pm


chownah
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby chownah » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:54 am

I went to accesstoinsight and did a search for "understood abandoned realized developed" but DO NOT INCLUDE THE QUOTATION MARKS just the words with spaces and no commas.
It gave me a few references that seemed to be relevant to this topic......check it out....

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_r ... loped#1212

chownah

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Pondera
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby Pondera » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:58 pm

There really is a sutta that says these things. It's a bit of a small, obscure, passage -somewhere. Perhaps the OP knows this sutta? I'm assuming he or she might, since he or she posted the question. But if he or that person who also may be a she, for all I know, which I don't, hence...then, ahem...doesn't know where that passage is, but rather, instead, read it as an appendix to something else, we'll have to go ahead and scrutinize the web for an answer. But the sutta is out there. I won't be finding it now, not that it's a big deal anyway, but regardless I have some frankfritters to fry. So farewell all good people of the dhamma wheel sangha.

-Pondera hmmm...(someone already scrutinized the web for this sutta, Pondera! Pondera apologizes.)

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daverupa
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby daverupa » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:39 pm


alan
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby alan » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:17 am

Good one Dave.

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Pondera
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby Pondera » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:17 pm

Well. I guess the question still remains; why not just say "the origin of craving should be abandoned"? Is this the same as saying "the truth of the origin of suffering should be abandoned"? Or is this somehow different?

Well, the origin of suffering, according to Buddhism, is "craving". So, when one says that the truth of the origin of suffering is craving, one is establishing the fact that a truth exists about the origin of suffering as well as, in a codependent way, enunciating the content of that truth.

So, it seems the problem here is that, in accordance with common sense, people don't normally abandon truth; especially if those "truths" are your guide towards some ultimate goal. But, in this case, when you abandon the truth of the origin of suffering, you simply abandon what that truth contains.

I think the misunderstanding arises from this. You read; "The Truth of the Origin of Suffering" -should be abandoned. This implies that any knowledge anyone might acquire from such a truth is to be thrown away; which simply doesn't make any sense. But, actually, the proper way to read the statement is; the "truth" of the origin of suffering should be abandoned. And because that "truth" is craving, the truth of the origin of suffering and the origin of suffering do mean the same thing, as someone said long ago up above.

The "Truth of the Origin of Suffering", as far as we take it only to mean "knowledge" should (probably) not be abandoned. In other words, it is (likely) good to keep in mind, as much as you can, that craving is the origin of suffering.

The "truth" of the origin of suffering, in as much as we recognize or penetrate into the realization that craving, and craving alone, is the true origin of all suffering; -this we should certainly abandon. So, emphasis on the word "truth".

-Pondera

Also Chapter 16 in Buddhaghosa's book gives a very good explanation about how the four noble truths are understood in a mundane and supermundane way. That chapter might also better explain or give an answer to the Oppy's question.

8fold
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Re: understood, abandoned, realized and developed

Postby 8fold » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:33 am

Thanks, everybody, for your responses. :smile:


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