Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

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Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:14 pm

Does anyone know who or what sect has taught or teaches about the amala-vijnana ("stainless" consciousness?)

As far as I know there was only one individual who taught this; an Indian by the name of Paramartha (499-569.) Also apparently the Nichiren sect teaches this, according to this website I found while doing an internet search of the subject: http://www.sgi.org/buddhism/buddhist-concepts/the-nine-consciousnesses.html Is that a legitimate source for what the Nichiren sect teaches? Because I thought it was based off the Lotus sutra and from reading the Lotus sutra: I didn't see any mention of an amala-vijnana?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby nirmal » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:19 pm

Yogi C M Chen among one of them
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:26 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote:Does anyone know who or what sect has taught or teaches about the amala-vijnana ("stainless" consciousness?)

As far as I know there was only one individual who taught this; an Indian by the name of Paramartha (499-569.) Also apparently the Nichiren sect teaches this, according to this website I found while doing an internet search of the subject: http://www.sgi.org/buddhism/buddhist-concepts/the-nine-consciousnesses.html Is that a legitimate source for what the Nichiren sect teaches? Because I thought it was based off the Lotus sutra and from reading the Lotus sutra: I didn't see any mention of an amala-vijnana?



This is a teaching by the Indian scholar Paramartha who introduced this idea to China. It was never a main stream Indian idea.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:46 pm

nirmal wrote:Yogi C M Chen among one of them

Is that the only person in the sinosphere to teach this? Anyone in any of the Tibetan sects teach this?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:49 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:Does anyone know who or what sect has taught or teaches about the amala-vijnana ("stainless" consciousness?)

As far as I know there was only one individual who taught this; an Indian by the name of Paramartha (499-569.) Also apparently the Nichiren sect teaches this, according to this website I found while doing an internet search of the subject: http://www.sgi.org/buddhism/buddhist-concepts/the-nine-consciousnesses.html Is that a legitimate source for what the Nichiren sect teaches? Because I thought it was based off the Lotus sutra and from reading the Lotus sutra: I didn't see any mention of an amala-vijnana?



This is a teaching by the Indian scholar Paramartha who introduced this idea to China. It was never a main stream Indian idea.


Where was the source of this theory? As in where did he learn of this? Or was it something he came uup with by himself?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:01 am

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:Does anyone know who or what sect has taught or teaches about the amala-vijnana ("stainless" consciousness?)

As far as I know there was only one individual who taught this; an Indian by the name of Paramartha (499-569.) Also apparently the Nichiren sect teaches this, according to this website I found while doing an internet search of the subject: http://www.sgi.org/buddhism/buddhist-concepts/the-nine-consciousnesses.html Is that a legitimate source for what the Nichiren sect teaches? Because I thought it was based off the Lotus sutra and from reading the Lotus sutra: I didn't see any mention of an amala-vijnana?



This is a teaching by the Indian scholar Paramartha who introduced this idea to China. It was never a main stream Indian idea.


Where was the source of this theory? As in where did he learn of this? Or was it something he came uup with by himself?


It seems to be his original contribution. The idea is rejected by Bhavaviveka.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby nirmal » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:11 am

The first five consciousnesses are the eye-consciousness and that of the ear,nose tongue and body which are also known as our senses

The sixth consciousness is equivalent to the scientific term "mind." In Theravada this is the main consciousness and contain the seventh and eighth.Thus Theravada does not admit any other consciousness.

The seventh consciousness, which holds the eighth consciousness as one's self is an object to be meditated away by sunyata samadhi

The eighth consciousness, emphasized in the Mahayana, contains all seeds, good or bad,from which the other seven types of consciousness are formed.

The ninth consciousness,emphasized in Tantra, contains all the virtues and potentialities of Buddhahood.When one is Fully Enlightened,this consciousness becomes the totality of wisdom WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

Religions emphasize that there is a soul, a higher-self or spirit which is the master of a being who may descend into hell or ascend to heaven. It does not die and on it depends transmigration when it descends(in some religions) though it may unite with God when it ascends.

Buddhism admits this as only the eighth consciousness.Above the eighth consciousness,when it is sublimated through sublimation upon no-ego(sunyata), THERE IS NO SOUL AT ALL.

Thus when Buddhist say that there is no soul,it means that in Buddhahood, there is no soul but for common persons there are 'changable souls' which carry their lives wandering in transmigration.The 'soul' is the eighth consciousness, which should meditated away by sunyata samadhi to eventually become the wisdom of Buddhahood(C M Chen)


www.sgi-usa-southbaycc.org/study/Nine_C ... nesses.pdf
www.examiner.com/buddhism-in.../why-nic ... hism-works
: http://www.sgi.org/english/Buddhism/more/more24.htm
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:16 am

nirmal wrote:The ninth consciousness,emphasized in Tantra, contains all the virtues and potentialities of Buddhahood.When one is Fully Enlightened,this consciousness becomes the totality of wisdom WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
)


There is no Buddhist tantra which teaches a "ninth" consciousness. It does not exist.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:22 am

nirmal wrote:The first five consciousnesses are the eye-consciousness and that of the ear,nose tongue and body which are also known as our senses

The sixth consciousness is equivalent to the scientific term "mind." In Theravada this is the main consciousness and contain the seventh and eighth.Thus Theravada does not admit any other consciousness.

The seventh consciousness, which holds the eighth consciousness as one's self is an object to be meditated away by sunyata samadhi

The eighth consciousness, emphasized in the Mahayana, contains all seeds, good or bad,from which the other seven types of consciousness are formed.

The ninth consciousness,emphasized in Tantra, contains all the virtues and potentialities of Buddhahood.When one is Fully Enlightened,this consciousness becomes the totality of wisdom WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

Religions emphasize that there is a soul, a higher-self or spirit which is the master of a being who may descend into hell or ascend to heaven. It does not die and on it depends transmigration when it descends(in some religions) though it may unite with God when it ascends.

Buddhism admits this as only the eighth consciousness.Above the eighth consciousness,when it is sublimated through sublimation upon no-ego(sunyata), THERE IS NO SOUL AT ALL.

Thus when Buddhist say that there is no soul,it means that in Buddhahood, there is no soul but for common persons there are 'changable souls' which carry their lives wandering in transmigration.The 'soul' is the eighth consciousness, which should meditated away by sunyata samadhi to eventually become the wisdom of Buddhahood(C M Chen)


I see. Based on the above response from namdrol: This was something that was spread from an individual to China, but as far as I know this wasn't taught in any of the Tibetan schools. From what I've read they all only recognize alaya-vijnana.

Where is the source of that above quote?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:24 am

Was Paramarthas source from any of the sutras?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:25 am

Lotus_Bitch wrote:[quote="NamdrolIt seems to be his original contribution. The idea is rejected by Bhavaviveka.


Was {aramarthas source ffrom any of the sutras?[/quote]

No, this is the reason it was rejected by Bhavaviveka.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:26 am

Namdrol wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:[quote="NamdrolIt seems to be his original contribution. The idea is rejected by Bhavaviveka.


Was {aramarthas source ffrom any of the sutras?


No, this is the reason it was rejected by Bhavaviveka.[/quote]

I see. So this was comepletely of his own invention then?
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:38 am

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
I see. So this was comepletely of his own invention then?


Yes.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:46 am

Namdrol wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:
I see. So this was comepletely of his own invention then?


Yes.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:49 am

Namdrol wrote:
nirmal wrote:The ninth consciousness,emphasized in Tantra, contains all the virtues and potentialities of Buddhahood.When one is Fully Enlightened,this consciousness becomes the totality of wisdom WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
)


There is no Buddhist tantra which teaches a "ninth" consciousness. It does not exist.

One more question:

If there was no tantra that teaches a ninth-consciousness, then where was the source of this Chen individual getting his ideas about tantra teaching a ninth-consciousness? Do you think it was from the Chinese? Because I am not aware of any of the Chinese sects teaching this either.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Huifeng » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:47 am

Namdrol wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:
I see. So this was comepletely of his own invention then?


Yes.


There is still a fair bit of debate about Paramartha's ideas and where they came from, I believe. So I don't think we can go quite that far.

But it is agreed that his position on a 9th vijnana was never mainstream in India, and when Xuanzang returned from India to China, it definitely was not mainstream in China, either.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Will » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:18 am

Waldron's note says:

Paramartha (T 30.1020b11–19) has consistently translated akraya-parivgtti, the revolution of the basis, as amala-vijñana, “pure-consciousness.” The term akraya-parivgtti is one of the central terms in Yogacara soteriology. The akraya, the basis or support, refers to alaya-vijñana and its transformation or revolution is understood here as the transformation of the very basis of personal existence, from afflicted self-centeredness to the state of perfect enlightenment and wisdom.


So it is a 9th consciousness only in the sense of a purified, transformed 8th - not another head on top of a head.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Huifeng » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:36 am

Will wrote:Waldron's note says:

Paramartha (T 30.1020b11–19) has consistently translated akraya-parivgtti, the revolution of the basis, as amala-vijñana, “pure-consciousness.” The term akraya-parivgtti is one of the central terms in Yogacara soteriology. The akraya, the basis or support, refers to alaya-vijñana and its transformation or revolution is understood here as the transformation of the very basis of personal existence, from afflicted self-centeredness to the state of perfect enlightenment and wisdom.


So it is a 9th consciousness only in the sense of a purified, transformed 8th - not another head on top of a head.


Will,

Do you think that it then may be a bit like the alayavijnana / tathagatagarbha distinction in texts like the Mahayanasamgraha? ie. that one is a general term, and the other is a term when it is purified, the person is accomplished?

Note: Probably a non-unicode font issue, Waldron's quote above "akraya" --> "aśraya", and "parivgtti" --> "parivṛtti".

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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Will » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:43 am

Huifeng wrote:
Will wrote:Waldron's note says:

Paramartha (T 30.1020b11–19) has consistently translated akraya-parivgtti, the revolution of the basis, as amala-vijñana, “pure-consciousness.” The term akraya-parivgtti is one of the central terms in Yogacara soteriology. The akraya, the basis or support, refers to alaya-vijñana and its transformation or revolution is understood here as the transformation of the very basis of personal existence, from afflicted self-centeredness to the state of perfect enlightenment and wisdom.


So it is a 9th consciousness only in the sense of a purified, transformed 8th - not another head on top of a head.


Will,

Do you think that it then may be a bit like the alayavijnana / tathagatagarbha distinction in texts like the Mahayanasamgraha? ie. that one is a general term, and the other is a term when it is purified, the person is accomplished?

Note: Probably a non-unicode font issue, Waldron's quote above "akraya" --> "aśraya", and "parivgtti" --> "parivṛtti".

~~ Huifeng


That could very well be, but I am still learning about such matters. I do hope so, because Yogacara attracts me.
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Re: Ninth-Consciousness: Who Teaches This?

Postby Jikan » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:44 pm

Seems to me that Wonhyo advocated a ninth consciousness on the basis of the Vajrasamadhi sutra (published as Cultivating Original Enlightenment). I know that Wonhyo himself was likely the compiler of that text. I bring it up because I'd like to know if this concept took hold in Korean Buddhism following Wonhyo, or if it was forgotten.
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