What are some "must have" books?

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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Huifeng » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:34 am

Namdrol wrote:
Huifeng wrote:The status of the *Satyasiddhiśāstra is in dispute: Some Chinese took it as Mahāyāna


Both Vasumitra and Paramartha identify the Bahuśrutīya as pro-Mahāyāna, with Satyasiddhiśāstra as their basic text. Of course, Satyasiddhiśāstra identifies the present moment as ultimately real, so hardly a non-realist postion like Madhyamaka.

N


Where does Vasumitra identify the *Satyasiddhi as their basic text? I thought that Vasumitra was from around the time of the Vibhasa, but the *Satyasiddhi comes a fair bit later than that. Though you are right in that some later Chinese works do identify it as such, though I'm not 100% convinced.

Also, the *Satyasiddhi does not identify the present as ultimately real, it would fit into their second category of realities, but not third and ultimate category. But still, they are not Madhyamaka.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Huifeng » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:43 am

Namdrol wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
But, as I mentioned earlier, check out the so called Mahāsūtras (cf. Skillings). These are Sautrāntika sūtras that have some definition "all dharmas are empty" type teachings. They are not present in the Pali, and even some of them have been lost. Vasu quotes them a fair bit in the Kosa, too. And, check out the Mahāsaṅghika commentary to the Ekottarāgama in Chinese, as well. Also the Mahāsaṅghika school Lokānuvartana Sūtra 《佛說內藏百寶經》, which is heavy on the emptiness thing.

~~ Huifeng


Saying that all dharmas are empty or lack svabhava is not the same thing as saying that all dharmas are completely unreal and mere nominal designations of appearances.


So ... what do those texts I mentioned say, then? ;)

《佛說內藏百寶經》卷1:「佛知諸經法本空本亦無所有。」(CBETA, T17, no. 807, p. 752, c7)
... the Buddha knows all dharmas as essentially (?) empty, and non-existent ...

etc. etc.

Many of these texts refer to all phenomena as "merely name", non-existent, and so on.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby maybay » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:03 pm

Jnana wrote:
maybay wrote:
Huifeng wrote:We seem to be totally off topic here, but some good discussion is going down!

Seems like the topic was never really clear. Mahayana / Hinayana are very broad designations. These need a more forgiving treatment than individual traditions - Sarvastivada etc - which are living entities forging a place for themselves in the world and can and do undergo much tighter scrutiny. Its like the difference between communism and the Chinese communist party. The manifest is not always a pure reflection of its ideal. Is it ever?

So when Virgo suggests what the Hinayanists were 'trying' to do, Jnana responds with a dubious reference to some fringe text. Scholars go deep, but it can become myopic vision which misses the point. Furthermore it makes it difficult for others to penetrate the doctrine when at every turn you draw attention to exceptions (and thus to yourselves.) Mahayana is the vision of enlightenment post-Shakyamuni - the spirited assemblage of dichotomies extending far beyond the written word. If these dialogues are to chisel out the path of a living tradition/s then well and good. But apart from this, how is it not just egoic wrangling over tombstones long forgotten? A kind of addiction to novelty, to original findings in the field of scriptural archeology. Are we so obsessed with building an objective reality? Could the inspiration behind this be nothing more than a Rahu-like desire for stripping dignities at every turn, a legacy of our protest-ant societies and our stifled contempt for the burgeoning now indestructible mass of histories that delimit us? I don't know any of you, but just by the avatars I'd forgive myself for thinking I'd entered upon a forum of ostensible Buddhists who rest their heads on their pillows every night satisfied in their conspiracy with die-hard nihilism.

Apparently the discussion doesn't interest you much. But then, why do you feel compelled to comment with what sounds to me like pretentious drivel?

Hey I'm getting you more Google hits here. More suckers to start up threads that fuel your 'culture industry'.

maybay wrote:In the 'Navel of the Demoness' - the author meets a Lama in Nepal who was surprised that a person should
wish to study a religion for any reason other than to practise or to persecute it. So which is it?

There's no need to compartmentalize. Discussing Buddhist history isn't incompatible with practicing dharma.

There's no Buddhist history outside of practicing Dharma.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:03 pm

Huifeng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
But, as I mentioned earlier, check out the so called Mahāsūtras (cf. Skillings). These are Sautrāntika sūtras that have some definition "all dharmas are empty" type teachings. They are not present in the Pali, and even some of them have been lost. Vasu quotes them a fair bit in the Kosa, too. And, check out the Mahāsaṅghika commentary to the Ekottarāgama in Chinese, as well. Also the Mahāsaṅghika school Lokānuvartana Sūtra 《佛說內藏百寶經》, which is heavy on the emptiness thing.

~~ Huifeng


Saying that all dharmas are empty or lack svabhava is not the same thing as saying that all dharmas are completely unreal and mere nominal designations of appearances.


So ... what do those texts I mentioned say, then? ;)

《佛說內藏百寶經》卷1:「佛知諸經法本空本亦無所有。」(CBETA, T17, no. 807, p. 752, c7)
... the Buddha knows all dharmas as essentially (?) empty, and non-existent ...

etc. etc.

Many of these texts refer to all phenomena as "merely name", non-existent, and so on.

~~ Huifeng


Ummmm, Huifeng, you just proved my point -- this passage comes from the 內藏百寶經, i.e. the ārya-lokānusamānāvatāra-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra or the 'phags pa 'jig rten gyi rjes su 'thun par 'jug pa zhes bya ba theg pa chen po'i mdo.

N
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Kai » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:04 pm

A bit off topic but for those who wish to know more in details about the discussions starting from page 3 to page 5, please read this book:

Image

I know its not Mahayana but still..........
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Huifeng » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:20 am

Namdrol wrote:Ummmm, Huifeng, you just proved my point -- this passage comes from the 內藏百寶經, i.e. the ārya-lokānusamānāvatāra-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra or the 'phags pa 'jig rten gyi rjes su 'thun par 'jug pa zhes bya ba theg pa chen po'i mdo.

N


By the time of your sources, it has got "mahāyāna" in the title, but not at first.
It's probably been co-opted by the mahāyāna after the fact.
Using later Sanskrit names is not going to show what it was originally recognized as.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:31 pm

Huifeng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Ummmm, Huifeng, you just proved my point -- this passage comes from the 內藏百寶經, i.e. the ārya-lokānusamānāvatāra-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra or the 'phags pa 'jig rten gyi rjes su 'thun par 'jug pa zhes bya ba theg pa chen po'i mdo.

N


By the time of your sources, it has got "mahāyāna" in the title, but not at first.
It's probably been co-opted by the mahāyāna after the fact.
Using later Sanskrit names is not going to show what it was originally recognized as.

~~ Huifeng



Looks to me like Lokakṣema was primarily involved in translating Mahāyāna sūtras. My objection still stands.

Verses from it exist in the Prasannapāda(as well as Mahāvastu) but that merely shows that it may have reworked some earlier material.



It was first translated into Tibetan in 8th century.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Kai » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:52 pm

I think the crux of the matter in the discussions so far is not whether Nikaya schools had/have taught the emptiness/selflessness of all phenomena but whether the "anatta" view as presented in Theravada and some other Nikaya schools who focused on the "emptiness of a person" is sufficient for Arhathood. In this regard, with some exceptions found in the Tibetan schools, the answer is resounding yes except maybe for Pudgalavāda and Vaibhashika whom the latter is described as a Vedic Buddhist hybrid school. It is still a relativity unknown among the recorded Buddhist history to which Vaibhashika school had produced Arhats or not........
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby Huifeng » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:38 am

Namdrol wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Ummmm, Huifeng, you just proved my point -- this passage comes from the 內藏百寶經, i.e. the ārya-lokānusamānāvatāra-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra or the 'phags pa 'jig rten gyi rjes su 'thun par 'jug pa zhes bya ba theg pa chen po'i mdo.

N


By the time of your sources, it has got "mahāyāna" in the title, but not at first.
It's probably been co-opted by the mahāyāna after the fact.
Using later Sanskrit names is not going to show what it was originally recognized as.

~~ Huifeng



Looks to me like Lokakṣema was primarily involved in translating Mahāyāna sūtras. My objection still stands.

Verses from it exist in the Prasannapāda(as well as Mahāvastu) but that merely shows that it may have reworked some earlier material.


It was first translated into Tibetan in 8th century.


Loppon-la,

The bold part above, "shows that it may have reworked some earlier material" is important, and I totally agree.
This is one reason why there are some texts which are not easily categorized as simply Mahayana or not Mahayana.
My own take is that some of these texts were originally from various schools, such as the Mahasamghikas,
from where they circulated to some degree, and that perhaps only later did they get the Mahayana reworking.
That reworking often included a change of title. Looking at different versions, over time, we can see the changes.

Another good example may be the Salistamba. While some scholars see it as Mahayana, the earlier versions
were not considered as such, and were just basic texts of the Mahasamghika or some other early school.
The end of the Skt version we have states: "āryaśālistambaṃ nāma mahāyānasūtraṃ..."
But this is not found there in the Chinese versions from many centuries earlier at all.
Some of the Chinese texts later have the "Mahayana" in the title, but no other indications that it is.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby do1 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:20 pm

B would recommend these:

Mahaprajnaparamita-sastra, 5 vols (Chinese-French by Lamotte -> English by P. Chodron).
Abhidharmakosa-bhasya, 3 vols (French by Poussin -> English by Pruden or by Lodrö Sangpo).
Abhidharmasamuccaya (French by Walpola Rahula -> English by A.P.Chodron or by Sara Boin-Webb).
Mahayanasamgraha (French by E.Lamotte -> English by Chodron. And/or Chinese-English by John Keenan.)
and Buddhist Logic, 2 vols by Th. Stcherbatsky.

I wish there is translation of Yogacarabhimi, but there isn't.
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Re: What are some "must have" books?

Postby do1 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:01 am

Kai wrote:A bit off topic but for those who wish to know more in details about the discussions starting from page 3 to page 5, please read this book:

Image

I know its not Mahayana but still..........

Great author. Does anybody have book or excerpts from it in e-form?

I wonder why Karunadasa writes in his (very cool othervise) article 'The Dhamma Theory': "Now the question that arises here is whether the Theravādins used the term sabhāva in the same sense as the Sarvāstivādins did. Did the Theravādins assume the metaphysical view that the substance of a dhamma persists throughout the three phases of time? In other words, does this amount to the admission that there is a duality between the dhamma and its sabhāva, between the bearer and the borne, a dichotomy which goes against the grain of the Buddhist doctrine of anattā?"

He is implying that Sarvastivadins have metaphysical view that dharmas have duality or bearer and borne. What, is he got minute of crazyness? And he is having world best Sarvastivada scholar in the same university (HKU) with him: prof. Bh. Dhammajoti.
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