Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:21 am

Kai wrote:
Astus wrote:Sure, there are many realms and many "planets". Still, if we go with the sequence of lives there is still a problem. Also, many jatakas and stories about former buddhas are placed in India, including cities from the Buddha's time. We can put all this into the category of "myths", nevertheless, these are the traditional views. Just like anything, this can change too. But it's a good reminder how ANY teaching may be reviewed and changed or forgot for ever.


Buddhist Mythology are largely taken from the earlier Vedas ones, the parallels are striking. Mount sumera = Mount Meru and as anyone would have guessed, its within the Himalayas range. No doubt that ancient Buddhists must have viewed India as the legendary southern continent, Jambudvipa while China is the Eastern one and Persia/Arabs to the west so on. Of course, this is perfectly understandably as ancient Indians tend to view the human of other races as separate human species due to the ignorance of biological science and attachment to superficial difference like skin colours, etc. If we take the Buddhist mythology literally, it would have meant that only Indians, people of the southern continent, are able to attain Buddhahood which is a nonsensical conclusion.

Furthermore, Buddhist conception of world system (Since the ancient idea behind the four continents only include China, Middle East, India and probably Russia region) doesn't include modern continents like Americas, Africa or Europe in it, for that, it is greatly flawed. And if people try to treat the huge America continent as a separate world system, it will create another problem.......that two world systems sharing the same moon and sun.

For people who argued that the people of northern continent and so on, are found in another planet and not on Earth, then they will face the fact or problem that there are no life found in other planets of our solar system and if they are found in other solar systems, then they have a different sun and moon from the people of the Southern continent. Therefore Northern, Western and Eastern continents must be found on our planet Earth and the fact that great Chinese monk Xuanzang once stated in his record that China = Eastern Continent and so on, support this deduction.

Its about time that Buddhist recognized the fact that their cosmological model require some revising or fine tuning.

I will talk about Chakravartins idea another day....Its something that many Buddhists take for granted without knowing that its another idea taken from their Brahmanism ancestry......


I think that is incorrect, the ancient world map means that the four continents lie around Antarctis, which is Mt Sumeru, and they lie neatly around it, that is India, Africa, South America and Australia. They correspond to Jambudvipa, Videha, Kuru and Godaniya. Sun goes around Antarctis, there is no problem with that. Other lands and continents are the outlying border regions.
The map is hugely old and there has crept certain misunderstanding into it.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 am

himalayanspirit wrote:There appears to be some inconsistency between theory of evolution of humans from primates and Mahayana Buddhism. Basically, in Buddhism it takes minimum three 'countless' kalpas to reach Buddhahood. Every sentient requires at least that period of time to reach Buddhahood including our very Buddha Shakyamuni. But did we even exist so long ago?

There are stories of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of many eons ago, but weren't we primates at that time?

What is the explanation of this inconsistency? Is it that when these sutras talk about civilizations many many kalpas ago, they are actually referring to another 'world-cycle' where sentient beings rose and then destroyed?

There has been a similar discussion before in Dharma wheel, see
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=1174
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Kai » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:37 am

Aemilius wrote:
I think that is incorrect, the ancient world map means that the four continents lie around Antarctis, which is Mt Sumeru, and they lie neatly around it, that is India, Africa, South America and Australia. They correspond to Jambudvipa, Videha, Kuru and Godaniya. Sun goes around Antarctis, there is no problem with that. Other lands and continents are the outlying border regions.
The map is hugely old and there has crept certain misunderstanding into it.


Antarctis = sumeru? You are really sketching your imagination. :shock: I don't think there was any historical records of Indians journey south enough to reach antarctic by sea before 250 B.C.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:02 pm

Kai wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
I think that is incorrect, the ancient world map means that the four continents lie around Antarctis, which is Mt Sumeru, and they lie neatly around it, that is India, Africa, South America and Australia. They correspond to Jambudvipa, Videha, Kuru and Godaniya. Sun goes around Antarctis, there is no problem with that. Other lands and continents are the outlying border regions.
The map is hugely old and there has crept certain misunderstanding into it.


Antarctis = sumeru? You are really sketching your imagination. :shock: I don't think there was any historical records of Indians journey south enough to reach antarctic by sea before 250 B.C.


Historical records ??? The mandala world map is a historical record.

And further, the five eyes has been, and still is, a valid source of knowledge in buddhism and in other indian systems.

In The Roman Empire we have the filosopher Lucretius Carus (from 99 BCE to 55 BCE), who wrote in his only surviving work that on the other side of this world there are beings who have a day when we have a night, and when we have a day they have a night.
Considering the massive destruction of knowledge caused by christianity and islam we can be sure that before it there has been knowledge about the other continents, that was known in the ancient world of Europe and India.
I also think that the adventures of Odysseus decribe his journey around the world, which took seven years. Odysseus describes for example the river Amazon and a Norwegian fjord, and also the Niagara falls, and other things,...
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Kai » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:06 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Kai wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
I think that is incorrect, the ancient world map means that the four continents lie around Antarctis, which is Mt Sumeru, and they lie neatly around it, that is India, Africa, South America and Australia. They correspond to Jambudvipa, Videha, Kuru and Godaniya. Sun goes around Antarctis, there is no problem with that. Other lands and continents are the outlying border regions.
The map is hugely old and there has crept certain misunderstanding into it.


Antarctis = sumeru? You are really sketching your imagination. :shock: I don't think there was any historical records of Indians journey south enough to reach antarctic by sea before 250 B.C.


Historical records ??? The mandala world map is a historical record.

And further, the five eyes has been, and still is, a valid source of knowledge in buddhism and in other indian systems.

In The Roman Empire we have the filosopher Lucretius Carus (from 99 BCE to 55 BCE), who wrote in his only surviving work that on the other side of this world there are beings who have a day when we have a night, and when we have a day they have a night.
Considering the massive destruction of knowledge caused by christianity and islam we can be sure that before it there has been knowledge about the other continents, that was known in the ancient world of Europe and India.
I also think that the adventures of Odysseus decribe his journey around the world, which took seven years. Odysseus describes for example the river Amazon and a Norwegian fjord, and also the Niagara falls, and other things,...


We are not talking about the Roman or Europeans, it baffled me to why you brought them into the picture.

Its well known fact among the Hindus that Mt meru or Sumeru= Mt Kailash, they make pilgrimages to that mountain every year which makes sure as they believe the residence of the devas to be located there. You certainly don't see them making the same journey to Antarctic.

Furthermore, in Vedas or Buddhist cosmology, the four continents are Joined to the mount Sumeru but separated from one another by a vast ocean. In your proposed modeling, Antarctic (Mount Sumeru) is not joined to India (The southern continent) at all, they are separated by a vast ocean instead, the same goes for other three continent.

The existence of South America was often ignored in ancient human's history but thanks to the explorers like Columbus, those places were finally made known. Even then, Indians and Chinese were ignorant of that continent, you can't find America in their ancient world map. Thats why your suggestion of the South America as the Northern continent is very, very overstretched since both Indian and Chinese didn't know the existence of that land and unlikely to include it into their religious modeling of the world.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:14 pm

The basic idea is that the human culture has existed in India (and elsewhere) much longer than the present day european historical writing admits, this is to say it has existed for 100 000 years, nay it has existed for more than a million years. This mandala world map thus derives from an earlier epoch when indians knew about people in Africa (Videha= Darkbody !), in South America (Kuru), Australia ( Godaniya), and the neighbouring islands . This view is possible, -besides being the real truth ofcourse-, Michael Cremo has done an enormous amount of work in this field which is published in his book Forbidden Archeology.
I've discussed this issue with an indian guy, and he could readily accept that Kuru is South America, because they have knowledge about Kuru which is consistent with the Inca culture.
We have also a Jain version of this ancient world map, Motilal Banarsidass has published a book about it, -I haven't read myself though.
The Roman-Indian connection is a difficult subject, Motilal Banarsidass has a book on it too. The issue has been around for a very long time, the official writing of history ignores it vehemently. From buddhist writers atleast Alex Wayman and Edward Conze have briefly mentioned it, i.e. that there quite certainly has been cultural exchange between ancient Rome and India.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:29 pm

Mt Kailash is later erroneous interpolation, because sun makes a perfect circle around Antarctis/Sumeru when it travels above the Equator, but not around Kailash.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:27 pm

Aemilius wrote: Considering the massive destruction of knowledge caused by christianity and islam we can be sure that before it there has been knowledge about the other continents, that was known in the ancient world of Europe and India.


That's like saying that before my house burned down there must have been a set of encyclopedias in it.

There are so many flaws in your stream of logic I cannot begin to discuss them all.

So, I won't.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby mañjughoṣamaṇi » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:42 pm

Aemilius wrote:The basic idea is that the human culture has existed in India (and elsewhere) much longer than the present day european historical writing admits, this is to say it has existed for 100 000 years, nay it has existed for more than a million years. This mandala world map thus derives from an earlier epoch when indians knew about people in Africa (Videha= Darkbody !), in South America (Kuru), Australia ( Godaniya), and the neighbouring islands . This view is possible, -besides being the real truth ofcourse-, Michael Cremo has done an enormous amount of work in this field which is published in his book Forbidden Archeology.
I've discussed this issue with an indian guy, and he could readily accept that Kuru is South America, because they have knowledge about Kuru which is consistent with the Inca culture.
We have also a Jain version of this ancient world map, Motilal Banarsidass has published a book about it, -I haven't read myself though.
The Roman-Indian connection is a difficult subject, Motilal Banarsidass has a book on it too. The issue has been around for a very long time, the official writing of history ignores it vehemently. From buddhist writers atleast Alex Wayman and Edward Conze have briefly mentioned it, i.e. that there quite certainly has been cultural exchange between ancient Rome and India.


That's some good sh!t man... Image
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Kai » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm

Aemilius wrote:The basic idea is that the human culture has existed in India (and elsewhere) much longer than the present day european historical writing admits, this is to say it has existed for 100 000 years, nay it has existed for more than a million years.


According to modern historians and archeologists, that is impossible. The first human civilization started in around 10000 BC by the Sumerians. And their words are more believable than most crack pot theories out in the net.

This mandala world map thus derives from an earlier epoch when indians knew about people in Africa (Videha= Darkbody !), in South America (Kuru), Australia ( Godaniya), and the neighbouring islands . This view is possible, -besides being the real truth ofcourse-, Michael Cremo has done an enormous amount of work in this field which is published in his book Forbidden Archeology.


There is a scholar who almost claimed that China discovered America way before Columbus but we all know that he is not to be taken seriously. With all due respect to that Micheal dude, its possible that he belongs to the same category.

I've discussed this issue with an indian guy, and he could readily accept that Kuru is South America, because they have knowledge about Kuru which is consistent with the Inca culture.


Don't see how. Kuru humans are supposed to be very, very wealthy, food automatically appears for them and they are much, much bigger in size than normal human like us. And they build castles in the air but as we all know; the Incas are not close to that..........

We have also a Jain version of this ancient world map, Motilal Banarsidass has published a book about it, -I haven't read myself though.
The Roman-Indian connection is a difficult subject, Motilal Banarsidass has a book on it too. The issue has been around for a very long time, the official writing of history ignores it vehemently. From buddhist writers atleast Alex Wayman and Edward Conze have briefly mentioned it, i.e. that there quite certainly has been cultural exchange between ancient Rome and India.


Possible but I don't think how and why the India map makers must follow the Roman's ones or vice verse.

Mt Kailash is later erroneous interpolation, because sun makes a perfect circle around Antarctis/Sumeru when it travels above the Equator, but not around Kailash.


Well, good luck selling that to the millions of Indians who believe that their gods are there and those yogis who claimed to "see" the manifestation of Shiva, etc, around the mount.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:33 am

Who is Michael Cremo? I think he once sold me some incense at the airport...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cremo _ _ _ _ _ __ _ :alien:
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:39 am

Kai wrote:
There is a scholar who almost claimed that China discovered America way before Columbus but we all know that he is not to be taken seriously.



It is certain, however, that Vikings were present in North America. There is some reason to believe that Irish fisher folks also found their way to the East Coast, and some reason to suppose that Phoenecians may have found their way to S. America.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:13 am

Kai wrote:
Aemilius wrote:The basic idea is that the human culture has existed in India (and elsewhere) much longer than the present day european historical writing admits, this is to say it has existed for 100 000 years, nay it has existed for more than a million years.


According to modern historians and archeologists, that is impossible. The first human civilization started in around 10000 BC by the Sumerians. And their words are more believable than most crack pot theories out in the net.

This mandala world map thus derives from an earlier epoch when indians knew about people in Africa (Videha= Darkbody !), in South America (Kuru), Australia ( Godaniya), and the neighbouring islands . This view is possible, -besides being the real truth ofcourse-, Michael Cremo has done an enormous amount of work in this field which is published in his book Forbidden Archeology.


There is a scholar who almost claimed that China discovered America way before Columbus but we all know that he is not to be taken seriously. With all due respect to that Micheal dude, its possible that he belongs to the same category.

I've discussed this issue with an indian guy, and he could readily accept that Kuru is South America, because they have knowledge about Kuru which is consistent with the Inca culture.


Don't see how. Kuru humans are supposed to be very, very wealthy, food automatically appears for them and they are much, much bigger in size than normal human like us. And they build castles in the air but as we all know; the Incas are not close to that..........

We have also a Jain version of this ancient world map, Motilal Banarsidass has published a book about it, -I haven't read myself though.
The Roman-Indian connection is a difficult subject, Motilal Banarsidass has a book on it too. The issue has been around for a very long time, the official writing of history ignores it vehemently. From buddhist writers atleast Alex Wayman and Edward Conze have briefly mentioned it, i.e. that there quite certainly has been cultural exchange between ancient Rome and India.


Possible but I don't think how and why the India map makers must follow the Roman's ones or vice verse.

Mt Kailash is later erroneous interpolation, because sun makes a perfect circle around Antarctis/Sumeru when it travels above the Equator, but not around Kailash.


Well, good luck selling that to the millions of Indians who believe that their gods are there and those yogis who claimed to "see" the manifestation of Shiva, etc, around the mount.


The common reality is mass of habitual tendencies, and not much else, there are very few who actually perceive anything beyond this great fog of nescience. This is how it is.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:29 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Aemilius wrote: Considering the massive destruction of knowledge caused by christianity and islam we can be sure that before it there has been knowledge about the other continents, that was known in the ancient world of Europe and India.


That's like saying that before my house burned down there must have been a set of encyclopedias in it.



That is an accurate metaphor, but we actually know that these encyclopedias of knowledge existed in the Roman empire, and in other Mediterranean countries, before they were declared heretical and destroyed by the mentioned forces. Why are we not satisfied with that ? Why are there historians who have spent their whole lives trying to figure out how it was before ? Working from mere scraps and fragments!?
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:15 pm

Aemilius wrote: Considering the massive destruction of knowledge caused by christianity and islam we can be sure that before it there has been knowledge about the other continents, that was known in the ancient world of Europe and India.





There was the Library of Alexandria, there were many great collections that have been destroyed. Nobody "can be sure" what was in them. However we can look at what is likely to have been known and what wasn't.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:55 pm

Aemilius wrote:Michael Cremo...


...is an avowed Vedic creationist and nothing he says about archaeology and human origins can be taken seriously.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Kai » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Aemilius wrote:The common reality is mass of habitual tendencies, and not much else, there are very few who actually perceive anything beyond this great fog of nescience. This is how it is.


This isn't really explaining anything. Anyway, just did a background check on the Michael guy and discovered that he is a Hindu creationist (who believe that the humans on Earth are long in existence as opposed to the Christian creationists) and have little credibility in the academical world. He is also a follower of Hare Krishna organization which doesn't left a good impression on many that have been close to them.
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:39 pm

himalayanspirit wrote:There appears to be some inconsistency between theory of evolution of humans from primates and Mahayana Buddhism. Basically, in Buddhism it takes minimum three 'countless' kalpas to reach Buddhahood. Every sentient requires at least that period of time to reach Buddhahood including our very Buddha Shakyamuni. But did we even exist so long ago?

There are stories of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of many eons ago, but weren't we primates at that time?

What is the explanation of this inconsistency? Is it that when these sutras talk about civilizations many many kalpas ago, they are actually referring to another 'world-cycle' where sentient beings rose and then destroyed?



The topic of this discussion, really opens a lot of doors because by the time the 21st century has rolled around there are a lot of things people know that were not known, or could not be proven 2500 years ago.

One can string a bridge of "possible maybes" , stretching from question to answer over a chasm of the unknown, but it will not be a very stable bridge and will easily collapse under the weight of proof.

We can say with great certainty, given what we know today, that the human realm emerged from the animal realm. This is really not much different from "Jealous Gods" or asuras spilling over into their own realm from a "God Realm". Evolution does not contradict the basic Buddhist premise that all things arise conditionally. When conditions were right, early primates stood up.

When people try to prove that the universe has an east and a west, or that Mt. Meru is here or there, what are they really trying to prove? What are they really looking for, and is there a 'greater truth' that they are completely overlooking?

We want things to make sense, and to add up. We want to follow dharma but we also want to accept things that just might contradict dharma teachings. The problem is not in the teachings or in the provability of science. The problem is that we want everything to be nice and squared away because that makes us feel happier, makes us cling to the idea of being right, not being made a fool, not being some stupid 'true believer'. We want Buddha to be right 100% of the time and by extension, everything that followed him in his path, all the way to the end of the line where we are. So, needing it all to make sense it's really just another big "ME" re-enforcer.

Maybe a lot of Buddhism was borrowed from Hindus, maybe a lot of what is taught or visualized is only presented as the literal truth because we take ourselves literally, we believe in the truth of a "ME". maybe a lot of it is simply wrong. Are we okay with that?

One time i think somebody asked HH Dalai Lama what his position would be if science disporved a teaching by the Buddha. he replied something to the effect that the Buddha was always right, but that maybe people who heard him got it wrong!!!

If you want to find the center of the universe, cut open an avocado or crack an egg. the center of the universe is everywhere all the time, moving from inward to outward. Night and day don't really exist. these are just words we invented for 12 hours of total shade. 99% of what we experience is just stuff that people made up along the way, or gave random names to. What's the point in trying to prove it?

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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Acchantika » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:57 pm

:good:
...
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Re: Evolution of humans and Mahayana Buddhism

Postby Aemilius » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:03 am

Namdrol wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Michael Cremo...


...is an avowed Vedic creationist and nothing he says about archaeology and human origins can be taken seriously.


You are being overly simplistic, creationism is still a false view, but Cremo knows something that is true and is also infinitely valuable for buddhists. Mass-consciousness is very powerful, diffcult to break through,...
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