the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:40 pm

N's.. point is a good valid one, I suspect some schools of Buddhism don't hold that view but consider it to be a different view than theirs....
No expert certainly am I in that area and with other schools and what they think...but I have heard rumor of that.

Perhaps others think that not so.....?
Last edited by ronnewmexico on Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby conebeckham » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:53 pm

I've removed it, Ronnewmexico. It wasn't meant personally, though, but my apologies to you.

In general, people talk a lot about Madhyamaka but all the talk in the world won't bring one to a decisive point....though it's helpful to understand, and talk helps--to a point.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:56 pm

Debate and discussion in some forms of buddhism serve as a important learning tool. I believe the Galugpa has one lineage holder who they credit with refining that opinion on discussion.

So I personally consider it a valid topic for discussion.this.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Jnana » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm

conebeckham wrote:In general, people talk a lot about Madhyamaka but all the talk in the world won't bring one to a decisive point....though it's helpful to understand, and talk helps--to a point.

Indeed. Without the integral development of appropriate ethical conduct and meditative composure and the rest of the perfections it's just talk. Apart from these components of practice it really isn't even Buddhadharma.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:40 pm

Jnana wrote:
conebeckham wrote:In general, people talk a lot about Madhyamaka but all the talk in the world won't bring one to a decisive point....though it's helpful to understand, and talk helps--to a point.

Indeed. Without the integral development of appropriate ethical conduct and meditative composure and the rest of the perfections it's just talk. Apart from these components of practice it really isn't even Buddhadharma.

All the best,

Geoff


A deterioration in discipline is allowable,
but never the view;
discipline leads to higher realms,
the view leads to the supreme stage.


-- Aryadeva.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Jnana » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:07 pm

Namdrol wrote:A deterioration in discipline is allowable,
but never the view;
discipline leads to higher realms,
the view leads to the supreme stage.


-- Aryadeva.

Śīlapāramitā may be flexible, but for the pāramitāyāna not entirely dispensable.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby conebeckham » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:11 pm

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:A deterioration in discipline is allowable,
but never the view;
discipline leads to higher realms,
the view leads to the supreme stage.


-- Aryadeva.

Śīlapāramitā may be flexible, but for the pāramitāyāna not entirely dispensable.



..I'd be interested to know what the original word for "The view" is in the section Namdrol quoted...as I'd bet it is not merely a conceptual assertion.
??
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:15 pm

conebeckham wrote:

..I'd be interested to know what the original word for "The view" is in the section Namdrol quoted...as I'd bet it is not merely a conceptual assertion.
??



Dṛṣṭih -- it is means in this case the view of emptiness. The reasoning, according to the Indian commentaries, is that discipline is something one practices only for one's own benefit. The view of emptiness is cultivated for both oneself and others.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby conebeckham » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:18 pm

So, does Dṛṣṭih refer to a "conceptual framework" or "approximate emptiness," or does it refer to an actual, experiental sort of "resting" in your opinion, Namdrol? I hope my question is clear.....?
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:35 pm

Madhyamaka is not true.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:49 pm

conebeckham wrote:So, does Dṛṣṭih refer to a "conceptual framework" or "approximate emptiness," or does it refer to an actual, experiental sort of "resting" in your opinion, Namdrol? I hope my question is clear.....?


It refers to an example emptiness arrived at through analysis when you are a common person.

One you have realized emptiness on the path of seeing, by definition you cannot have a deteriation in view.

We can therefore understand here that "view" refers to analytical emptiness since that is the only view susceptible to deterioration.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:51 pm

adinatha wrote:Madhyamaka is not true.



Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:39 am

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Madhyamaka is not true.



Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.


Is that true?
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Jangchup Donden » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:29 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Madhyamaka is not true.



Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.


Is that true?


I think so. From what I've been taught it seems the point of Madhyamaka is to point out the inconsistency of holding any conditioned view.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:38 am

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Madhyamaka is not true.



Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.


Is that true?


In order make the evaluation "Madhyamaka is "true" or "not true", you would have to assess what a Madhyamaka position might be. If you cannot assess such a position, claiming either truth or falsity with regard to Madhyamaka is erroneous.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.


Is that true?


In order make the evaluation "Madhyamaka is "true" or "not true", you would have to assess what a Madhyamaka position might be. If you cannot assess such a position, claiming either truth or falsity with regard to Madhyamaka is erroneous.


Is that right?
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:56 pm

adinatha wrote:
Is that right?


Is that wrong?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Is that right?


Is that wrong?


I defer to you.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:41 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Is that right?


Is that wrong?


I defer to you.



The great 11th Nyingma scholar Rongzom points out that only Madhyamaka accepts that its critical methodology "harms itself", meaning that Madhyamaka uses non-affirming negations to reject the positions of opponents, but does not resort to affirming negations to support a position of its own. Since Madhyamaka, as Buddhapalita states "does not propose the non-existence of existents, but instead rejects claims for the existence of existents", there is no true Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be formulated; likewise there is no false Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be rejected.

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http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:45 pm

So Madhyamaka is not really a view, but a destructive tactic when responding to others' opinions? Then taking evasive maneuvers when the opponent takes aim? I wonder about why one would get involved?
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