Finding and leaving the teacher ...

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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:38 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
What is the role of "teacher" in the context of liberation which may enable one to be of help for others to get liberated?
When does "teacher" become bondage?
Does "benefit" have to have a certain quality before "leaving" is undertaken?
Can "benefit" arise when "leaving" is rejected?
That's more like it! :twothumbsup: Now you are not positing a view but seeking answers to questions that concern you!


Neither "you" nor "me".

In order to investigate into sample questions like these (further questions may be involved) the following hypothesis has been put forth:

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Or vice versa:
Investigating into the hypothesis may raise questions like these sample questions.


Kind regards
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:00 am

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
What is the role of "teacher" in the context of liberation which may enable one to be of help for others to get liberated?
When does "teacher" become bondage?
Does "benefit" have to have a certain quality before "leaving" is undertaken?
Can "benefit" arise when "leaving" is rejected?
That's more like it! :twothumbsup: Now you are not positing a view but seeking answers to questions that concern you!


Neither "you" nor "me".

In order to investigate into sample questions like these (further questions may be involved) the following hypothesis has been put forth:

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Or vice versa:
Investigating into the hypothesis may raise questions like these sample questions.


Kind regards
One step forward 84,000 steps backwards!
What a guy!
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:15 am

Just a small point:

If a teacher has been of benefit, staying means that we lose nothing of that benefit and may gain more.

If a teacher has been of no benefit, or has nothing more to teach that is of benefit, staying means we may continue to receive no benefit, so this this the only scenario where leaving makes sense.

'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Adamantine » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:24 am

Finding and leaving a Dharma Wheel Forum companion

In order to receive nonsense, one has to find its source. Once nonsense has been received the source of nonsense should be left.

As soon as you have received nonsense from a Dharma Wheel Forum companion, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:39 am

Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)


"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Tilopa » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:50 am

Adamantine wrote:Finding and leaving a Dharma Wheel Forum companion

In order to receive nonsense, one has to find its source. Once nonsense has been received the source of nonsense should be left.

As soon as you have received nonsense from a Dharma Wheel Forum companion, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards

It's not hard to find the source of nonsense on this thread. :tongue:
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby muni » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:14 pm

Yeshe wrote:Just a small point:

If a teacher has been of benefit, staying means that we lose nothing of that benefit and may gain more.

If a teacher has been of no benefit, or has nothing more to teach that is of benefit, staying means we may continue to receive no benefit, so this this the only scenario where leaving makes sense.

'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)


what is the meaning of grasshopper here?
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:38 pm

muni wrote:
Yeshe wrote:Just a small point:

If a teacher has been of benefit, staying means that we lose nothing of that benefit and may gain more.

If a teacher has been of no benefit, or has nothing more to teach that is of benefit, staying means we may continue to receive no benefit, so this this the only scenario where leaving makes sense.

'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)


what is the meaning of grasshopper here?



'Grasshopper' students hop from guru to guru and never settle long enough to derive much benefit.

The other 'grasshopper' reference to TV was a bit of a pun realted to the Kung Fu TV series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyJRXvPNRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdsZ3wnElo&NR=1
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby muni » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:23 pm

thank you Yeshe. May all have all benefits.


The teacher can send one away, not? But this as part of the teaching. A teacher never neglect to help his diciples.
still it happens one get this teaching from such teacher, another teaching from another teacher, dependent of many like of so called karmic destiny, karmic condition and so on. If all misperception are the same, no need of many ways to offer Dharma neither and only through own known conditioned system the meaning will be revealed.

Lets' not forget those of who the teacher pass away as well.

Cheating own mind or honestly ready for dharma, then the teacher!

We all react from own known Dharma connection. When one leaves the teacher, that one "isn't" :broke: through understanding and understands no leaving ever can be in understanding. or something like that i heard.

p.s: when one get some benefit one sees mistakes in own garbage.
Last edited by muni on Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby LastLegend » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Teacher should be someone whom the student has respect for. When you respect the teacher, you will follow the teachings and practice and your practice might even surpass that of teacher since teacher might not have been able to achieve what he or she has been teaching you. This does not mean that you should blindly practice...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:30 pm

LastLegend wrote:...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
Results?
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:55 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)


"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards


Yup - they go from 'guru' to 'guru' and never realise that wherever they go, there they are, no further forwards.

The OP seemed to focus more on the leaving, or at least the thread has turned that way.

A focus on finding may make the leaving less likely and less frequent.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Caz » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:10 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)


"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards


Ive witnessed instances of people being given solid teachings on mind training full of benifit the problem is people think reading about it an practising for few months will suddenly yeild enlightenment, Only to be disapointed to find that it doesnt...effort is key and faliure to exert results in gaining nothing.
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Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby LastLegend » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:07 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
LastLegend wrote:...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
Results?
:namaste:


ok
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:31 pm

LastLegend wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
LastLegend wrote:...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
Results?
:namaste:


ok
Not exactly an answer by any standards. But I guess it was only a one word question. So what does it mean when you sy that a practice does not seem to produce results? What type of results would you expect from a Chenrezig sadhana, for example? How can you know what results to expect? I mean for meditative absorption one has the jhana as an outline, but for other practices? What time frame should one allow for results to manifest? One week? Two? A month? A year? A lifetime? An incalculable eon? Get my drift?
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:33 am

Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)


"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards


Yup - they go from 'guru' to 'guru' and never realise that wherever they go, there they are, no further forwards.

The OP seemed to focus more on the leaving, or at least the thread has turned that way.

A focus on finding may make the leaving less likely and less frequent.


Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".

Kind regards
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:35 am

TMingyur wrote:Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".
Talkin' loud sayin' nothin'!
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:40 pm

Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".


Gotta agree with Greg on this one. I say, So What?

The "wavering," in my experience, is not caused by any such reification. The reasons are legion, but this is not one of them.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:16 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
A focus on finding may make the leaving less likely and less frequent.


Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".

Kind regards


None of the aboove has anything to do with taking great care when seeking and finding a suitable guru, which may reduce the need to leave him/her.

If what you wrote above is really your view, you are accusing yourself of a nonsensical thread title and OP. ;) :anjali:
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:26 am

Yeshe wrote:If what you wrote above is really your view, you are accusing yourself of a nonsensical thread title and OP. ;) :anjali:

Actually there is no view expressed but it is left undecided. If there would be any decision then what has been put forth as hypothesis for investigation would have been an assertion.

In the context of "teacher" it is impossible to draw a line between wholesome "mind training" (lojong) and unwholesome conditioning. It is impossible on the basis of determined views. Therefore the hypothesis for investigation.

The clinging to views can cause the misconception of mere non-commitment to these views as rejection although there is just mere non-commitment.


Kind regards
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