Finding and leaving the teacher ...

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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Jikan » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:32 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well however you want to put it then: -what Mahayana tradition is there that instructs one to leave a teacher as soon as one finds some benefit? :?:

There are Mahayana traditions that advocate the path to liberation from obscurations. Now the question is: Where may obscurations be lurking?


I think this question presupposes an answer: specifically, it presupposes that one's teacher or more specifically one's commitment to learning from one's teacher is a form of obscuration. I suppose that if one has a poisoned relationship with a teacher, or an incompetent teacher, then this may be the case. A capable teacher doesn't demand mindless devotion, and finds ways to cut away 'hero worship' and other such games.

I'd like to propose another angle: might it not also be possible that a lack of trust in any durable teaching relationship indicates a lack of trust in the method of teaching, in one's own learning? A teacher-student relationship demands that the student trust that the teacher is better informed than the student, specifically that because the teacher is less deluded than the student, the teacher understands the student's learning and learning needs better than the student does. (In this sense the teacher is a bulwark against evasion and avoidance...).

To the point: if your teacher is legit, he or she will tell you when to go away as you've learned enough. Maybe push you out of the nest.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:46 pm

Some extracts from a Mahayana Lojong practice associated with the Dharmapala Yamantaka entitled "The Wheel of sharp Weapons"
(82) We always are jealous of those of great status;
We feel holy gurus are threats to avoid.
Overwhelmed by attachment and ruled by our passions,
We spend all our time lusting after young loves.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.

What about this one?
(87) We don’t follow proper procedures of study;
We say it is needless to read the vast texts.
We feel there’s no value in learning from gurus;
We slight oral teachings and think we know best.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Adamantine » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:11 pm

Adamantine wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Adamantine wrote:But if he was riffing on that idea, then it is about not getting attached to an external representation of "Buddha", outside of one's own mind, right? But then Tmingyur also has problems with the notion of "Buddha Nature", so that can't be what he's getting at. :shrug:


That's interesting. So you think that one has to be taken, either an external or an internal one.

I really am not sure how you derived that from my comments you quoted.





I would get into this more deeply but I am really not sure if you are that genuinely interested or open minded on this topic, it seems you have already decided on your view. If you are interested and open minded however and would like to see how a great teacher communicates about these ideas I recommend to you the same series of recordings I recommended to someone else in a separate thread: both Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's teachings on the Uttaratantra and the Crying to the Guru from Afar. Here is a link: http://www.siddharthasintent.org/teachi ... ouver.html The former one goes into great detail as to the correct view of tathagatagarbha, the latter goes into detail about the levels of 'outer' 'inner', and 'secret' teacher. Perhaps if you thoroughly listened to these teachings they would clarify a great deal, and save a lot of time in useless internet dialogues. :namaste:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Josef » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:37 pm

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards

This kind of action would still be rude and presumptuous, but not as ridiculous and arrogant as it would be in the Vajrayana setting where you first proposed it.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby tamdrin » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:08 pm

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards


One of the arguments for finding a good teacher and staying with them is that no one ever got enlightened without following a teacher... Anotherwords, TMingyur if you could have gotten out of samsara on your own will and intelligence you would have gotten there by now...
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby plwk » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:12 pm

...no one ever got enlightened without following a teacher...

I read Sakyamuni did.... :tongue:
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Josef » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:45 pm

plwk wrote:
...no one ever got enlightened without following a teacher...

I read Sakyamuni did.... :tongue:

Anyone who ever attained any kind of realization did. Including Shakyamuni.
Last edited by Josef on Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:02 pm

Nangwa wrote:
plwk wrote:
...no one ever got enlightened without following a teacher...

I read Sakyamuni did.... :tongue:

Anyone who ever attained any kind of realization did.


Since all Buddhists were taught by someone, even if only from a book, then logically no Buddhist has become enlightened?


Buddha had teachers. We can't be sure that he did not build on what he learned from them, even if only through rejection of their approaches.

All Buddhists have had teachers - their first teacher was Shakyamuni. If nobody who attained realisations or enlightenment had a teacher, then Buddhists have wasted thousands of years passing on worthless teachings.

Good job heart surgeons don't train the same way - and do we think so little of our minds and think so highly of ourselves that we can do without them?

Maybe the OP should be: 'Don't bother.........work it out for yourself.' LOL :)
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Adamantine » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:19 pm

TMingyur wrote:As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.


It seems that you enjoy being as vague as possible in your posts, but I'll just try something more specific with this one:

If by 'benefit', you mean 'full enlightenement' and by 'immediately leaving' you mean 'there is no longer any need of', then I would agree.

Let's try it again all together:

As soon as you have attained full enlightenment, there is no longer any need to look to the teacher(or in the same place add 'to the Buddha', or 'to the Guru').


However, the way your statement reads, it is much more easy to interpret it this way
As soon as you develop any type of insight through the kindness of the teachers instructions, no matter how minor, impermanent, or limited in comparison to the scope of full realization -- then immediately leave the teacher, and avoid receiving any further insight they may have to offer, no matter how much more profound, clarifying, illuminating, or limitless it may be.


I mean, are you starting to see why you are getting the type of reactions you are? It is not because people are clinging to Vajrayana tenets, it is because your statement simply reads as grossly irrational. If your intent is to make irrational statements to stir up a response, or to purposefully obscure your true intent- then the label 'troll' surely fits. I hope this is not the case.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby muni » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:24 pm

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards

Possible to explain source?
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Josef » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:25 pm

Yeshe wrote:Anyone who ever attained any kind of realization did.


all Buddhists were taught by someone

[/quote]
Thats actually what I was saying. After reading it again it was a bit confusing so I edited my post.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:46 pm

plwk wrote:
...no one ever got enlightened without following a teacher...

I read Sakyamuni did.... :tongue:
He had lots of teachers but they could only show him which practices did not lead to enlightenment. Which is not such a bad thing. It's like going mushroom picking and knowing and having learnt which mushrooms you should not pick and eat, at worst the ones you do pick will taste awful ,but at least they won't kill you! :tongue:
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Caz » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:08 pm

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards


When one attains full enlightenment one is capable of benifiting countless living beings at that time is one ready to become like a fountain others can drink from to quench their suffering, Lets look at it this way fully enlightened being such as Avaloketishvara and Araya Tara, Maitreya have their spiritual guide upon their crown to demonstrate that reliance upon the spiritual guide is the source of the path and even when the path is complete they still dilligently demonstrate this reliance as an example for others to follow there is a reason why reliance upon the spiritual guide comes first and last when practising Lamrim it is because when one finds a teacher well adapt to guiding others on the path then one should rely on them as they are the source of wisdom and accomplishment from which we shall learn and take example from this kindness is always received from the spiritual guide, Just as we learn to cherish others and remember their kindness when entering the paths and grounds of Bodhisattvahood and Buddhahood we remember the kindness of the spiritual guide and constantly demonstrate the manner of reliance upon them.

So when one says to immediately leave a teacher or a spiritual guide when we have received benifit from them this is incorrect as previously said even when we accomplish enlightenment we should still demonstrate the manner of reliance. :namaste:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:57 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Yeshe wrote:Anyone who ever attained any kind of realization did.


all Buddhists were taught by someone


Thats actually what I was saying. After reading it again it was a bit confusing so I edited my post.[/quote]

Apologies - I was reinforcing your point, albeit clumsily. :namaste:
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Astus » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:04 pm

Indeed, every Buddhist has a teacher in Sakyamuni himself. What is not mentioned is the category of pratyekabuddhas who attain liberation when the Dharma is not present in a world, so they aren't just without a personal teacher looking after everything they do but they don't even have any other resources available. It is also quite confusing in this discussion that a "teacher" is a quite big category. For instance, in Chinese Buddhism colloquially all monks are called Dharma-teachers (fashi).
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:07 pm

Astus wrote:Indeed, every Buddhist has a teacher in Sakyamuni himself. What is not mentioned is the category of pratyekabuddhas who attain liberation when the Dharma is not present in a world, so they aren't just without a personal teacher looking after everything they do but they don't even have any other resources available. It is also quite confusing in this discussion that a "teacher" is a quite big category. For instance, in Chinese Buddhism colloquially all monks are called Dharma-teachers (fashi).


Would that be the equivalent of 'Sensei' in Japan ?

'Sensei' was translated to me as 'one who has gone before' and is then in a position to help us.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Josef » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:20 pm

Yeshe wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Yeshe wrote:Anyone who ever attained any kind of realization did.


all Buddhists were taught by someone


Thats actually what I was saying. After reading it again it was a bit confusing so I edited my post.


Apologies - I was reinforcing your point, albeit clumsily. :namaste:[/quote]
No biggie. Just wanted to make sure I was making sense there.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Adamantine » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:22 pm

Caz wrote:
So when one says to immediately leave a teacher or a spiritual guide when we have received benifit from them this is incorrect as previously said even when we accomplish enlightenment we should still demonstrate the manner of reliance. :namaste:


Exhibiting reliance on a teacher, for the benefit of others as a skillful means and actually relying on one are very different things.. just to clarify that what I was saying is not in contradiction to your statements. A Buddha or Bodhisattva may also appear as a dog, or a pig -as a skillful nirmanakaya display in order to benefit beings, this does not make them actually dogs or pigs.
And with Avaloketishvara, Amitabha on his crown represents the Dharmakaya aspect, he is not separate from. Similarly, it is said Amitabha = Dharmakaya, Avaloketishvara = Samboghakaya, and Padmasambhava = Nirmanakaya emanation. But in nature they are inseparable.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:59 pm

Inge wrote:I think that when you have received benefit from a teacher you would certainly know. As to leaving, where would you go?

Good question. I understand that "leaving" may imply an active "moving away from". If one walks along a way together with another person and this other person keeps moving on but oneself stops at a certain time then even without moving actively away from this person it may be said that "one leaves this person" ... although one simply rests where one is ... although the distance increases not necessarily is there the perception of "distance increasing" because "distance" depends on attention still accompanying the moving object.

Kind regards
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:14 pm

Now you are just clumsily playing with words. I say clumsily because the meaning of what you are saying is extremely ambiguous.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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