Finding and leaving the teacher ...

General forum on Mahayana.

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:37 am

Adamantine wrote:Well however you want to put it then: -what Mahayana tradition is there that instructs one to leave a teacher as soon as one finds some benefit? :?:

There are Mahayana traditions that advocate the path to liberation from obscurations. Now the question is: Where may obscurations be lurking?

kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:48 am

Dexing wrote:In the opening post you said;

    "In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left."


My comment on loving-kindness being a source of great benefit is in response to this. You say one should of course not abandon loving-kindness, even though it is a source of benefit.

If you liken it to a student-teacher relationship, as in;

    "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him."


Then my comment still stands in this case. If you agree that loving-kindness should not be abandoned, then you should agree that the teacher should not be left, as you suggested.

You have logically contradicted yourself then, to where I am unclear where you even stand now. Do you suggest leaving your teacher or not?

:namaste:


Ah ... I see where the talking at cross purposes may be located.

Loving kindness may be seen as the benefit arising from a source (which is a sort of method).
If you have received this benefit you should rely on it but not be attached to the means of practice.
In the same vein "teacher" and "benefit from teacher" are related.

Now if you posit "Loving kindness" being the source of benefit in turn then it is a matter of speculating whether the benefit derived from it will still require "Loving kindness" as basis and if it is still dependent on it whether it can be validly considered to be a benefit derived from "Loving kindness".


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:28 am

conebeckham wrote:In life, I usually find that if something is beneficial, I stick with it. If it stops being beneficial, or becomes detrimental, well, then, I leave it.


Geez Cone, you're always coming around here with your strange ideas.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:11 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
conebeckham wrote:In life, I usually find that if something is beneficial, I stick with it. If it stops being beneficial, or becomes detrimental, well, then, I leave it.


Geez Cone, you're always coming around here with your strange ideas.


Indeed this would be a very strange idea, if Yeshe were right:
Yeshe wrote:As soon as the disciple has received benefit...............so it is the disciple's decision. Unless they are omniscient, your premise is false, based on the 'feeling' of the disciple.

which I understand as an outright and categorical denial of a student's capacity to discern "benefit".


kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:46 am

TMingyur wrote:There are Mahayana traditions that advocate the path to liberation from obscurations. Now the question is: Where may obscurations be lurking?
Is that a trick question?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9321
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:50 am

TMingyur wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
conebeckham wrote:In life, I usually find that if something is beneficial, I stick with it. If it stops being beneficial, or becomes detrimental, well, then, I leave it.


Geez Cone, you're always coming around here with your strange ideas.


Indeed this would be a very strange idea, if Yeshe were right:
Yeshe wrote:As soon as the disciple has received benefit...............so it is the disciple's decision. Unless they are omniscient, your premise is false, based on the 'feeling' of the disciple.

which I understand as an outright and categorical denial of a student's capacity to discern "benefit".


kind regards


TMingyur,

Look, man, you've given it your best shot, but we're hopelessly stuck on relying on our gurus, appreciating some perceived usefulness in various traditional philosophical views and so on, and that's not going to change. You've tried to save us from all our misguided ideas, but it's just not happening. Wouldn't it be better to just go off and found your own website dedicated to what you clearly find to be a superior, attachment-less, prapanca-less, more-in-tune-with-the-Buddha's-intent approach to the Dharma and attract members of like mind who will appreciate it? We sheep dominate the place here at Dharmawheel, and none of us is appreciating all you've been trying to do for us. So why not go save those who can be saved?

Kind regards
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:51 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:There are Mahayana traditions that advocate the path to liberation from obscurations. Now the question is: Where may obscurations be lurking?
Is that a trick question?
:namaste:


I do not think that we, you and me, may meet anywhere.

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:53 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Look, man, you've given it your best shot, but we're hopelessly stuck on relying on our gurus, appreciating some perceived usefulness in various traditional philosophical views and so on, and that's not going to change. You've tried to save us from all our misguided ideas, but it's just not happening. Wouldn't it be better to just go off and found your own website dedicated to what you clearly find to be a superior, attachment-less, prapanca-less, more-in-tune-with-the-Buddha's-intent approach to the Dharma and attract members of like mind who will appreciate it? We sheep dominate the place here at Dharmawheel, and none of us is appreciating all you've been trying to do for us. So why not go save those who can be saved?

Kind regards


Why is there always the "we and you" the "I" and "mine" ... endless comparisons and projections?

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:04 am

TMingyur wrote:I do not think that we, you and me, may meet anywhere.
It seems to me, and a whole lot of other people on this site, and other sites of its type, that the only place obscuration is lurking is mind. Relationship with teacher? Mind! Mahayana vs Theravadra? Mind! Sects and Sectarianism? Mind! Is Existence Illusion? Mind!

Care to disagree? Again your disagreement will only be the workings of mind. Think you know the answer? Take a guess what the answer is... that's right, it's all just the workings of Mind. Posit dualism? Mind! Realise emptiness? Mind! Perception? Mind!

You starting to see a pattern forming here you or you want me to spell it out further for you?

If you can understand your Mind then omniscience (Buddhahood) is gained.

But hey! Don't take it from me, check this out:
AN 1.49-52 Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind."
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9321
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:09 am

And here from the Dhammapada
Dhp I PTS: Dhp 1-20
Yamakavagga: Pairs
translated from the Pali by
Acharya Buddharakkhita
1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
So go deal with your mind and stop trying to s***w with other peoples minds!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9321
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:14 am

TMingyur wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Look, man, you've given it your best shot, but we're hopelessly stuck on relying on our gurus, appreciating some perceived usefulness in various traditional philosophical views and so on, and that's not going to change. You've tried to save us from all our misguided ideas, but it's just not happening. Wouldn't it be better to just go off and found your own website dedicated to what you clearly find to be a superior, attachment-less, prapanca-less, more-in-tune-with-the-Buddha's-intent approach to the Dharma and attract members of like mind who will appreciate it? We sheep dominate the place here at Dharmawheel, and none of us is appreciating all you've been trying to do for us. So why not go save those who can be saved?

Kind regards


Why is there always the "we and you" the "I" and "mine" ... endless comparisons and projections?

Kind regards


TMingyur,

Since you can obviously read, and you're too intelligent not to be aware of the ever-present opposition to your unique views in every thread you participate in, I must conclude that you just thrive on kicking up dissent. It's just a waste of time to debate with you. Take care.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:17 am

Neither dissent nor offence intended.
A "potential" sometimes metaphorically called "openness" is appealed to.
Why not investigate into the variety of potential meanings of terms and terminologies?
Is there anything to lose?

Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:23 am

TMingyur wrote:Neither dissent nor offence intended.
A "potential" sometimes metaphorically called "openness" is appealed to.
Why not investigate into the variety of potential meanings of terms and terminologies?
Is there anything to lose?
Ones precious time?
Is that the right answer? Did I win the stuffed toy?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9321
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby muni » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:42 am

When a teacher decides to send the student away, possible it is like a little duck standing first a side safe by mom. But then mom goes in the water and little duck can stay on solid ground or be by mom. I mean in understanding, not in clinging.

Look to stories like the one of Milarepa. There is expressed: in understanding is there no leaving, no separation.

A teacher is not merely dumping a student. The student leaves the teacher?
muni
 
Posts: 2875
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Astus » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:10 am

I don't even see how the whole teacher issue makes sense in this context. I mean, lay people are generally not bound to any teacher or community and they're free to do as they please. Of course, it is for the benefit of every lay people to listen to Dharma teachings and support the sangha. But when there is talk of a teacher in a Buddhist text - whether sutra or something else - it is primarily from the view of the monastic community where every novice is under the guidance of both a disciplinary teacher and a Dharma teacher, plus the abbot of the monastery where s/he is ordained. For at least five years a newly ordained monk can't move from the teacher s/he receives instructions from (except in special cases). After the first five years are gone a monastic may move to a different monastery if s/he wants to. However, in case of lay people these rules do not exist. So what is the whole point of finding and leaving a teacher? What teacher?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4217
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Inge » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:45 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
TMingyur,

Look, man, you've given it your best shot, but we're hopelessly stuck on relying on our gurus, appreciating some perceived usefulness in various traditional philosophical views and so on, and that's not going to change. You've tried to save us from all our misguided ideas, but it's just not happening. Wouldn't it be better to just go off and found your own website dedicated to what you clearly find to be a superior, attachment-less, prapanca-less, more-in-tune-with-the-Buddha's-intent approach to the Dharma and attract members of like mind who will appreciate it? We sheep dominate the place here at Dharmawheel, and none of us is appreciating all you've been trying to do for us. So why not go save those who can be saved?

Kind regards


Please exclude me from the "we" and "us" you are referring to. I appreciate the writings of TMingyur.
User avatar
Inge
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Inge » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:53 am

TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards


I think that when you have received benefit from a teacher you would certainly know. As to leaving, where would you go?
User avatar
Inge
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:48 am

TMingyur wrote:Indeed this would be a very strange idea, if Yeshe were right:
Yeshe wrote:As soon as the disciple has received benefit...............so it is the disciple's decision. Unless they are omniscient, your premise is false, based on the 'feeling' of the disciple.

which I understand as an outright and categorical denial of a student's capacity to discern "benefit".


kind regards


Strangely, you have misinterpreted me.

The student is capable of knowing when they have received benefit. What they cannot know for sure is whether the Guru has more to offer, so your premise was, and remains, false.

But hey, since you seem alone in your views here, perhaps you are speaking from experience and have not found a teacher who is able to teach you anything. This may say more about you than about them. ;)
Last edited by Blue Garuda on Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Left
Blue Garuda
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby Lazy_eye » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:51 am

Inge wrote:
Please exclude me from the "we" and "us" you are referring to. I appreciate the writings of TMingyur.


I also welcome them. Scratch me from the above group.
User avatar
Lazy_eye
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:32 am
Location: Laurel, MD

Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Postby muni » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:14 pm

As far as I understand here is talk about root master?

In a mixed forum we often don't understand each other, so maybe i here as well. Than there is a easy solution: when I understand; this is great knowing! When I don't understand; this is complete bulshit! Life is so easy.
muni
 
Posts: 2875
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

PreviousNext

Return to Mahāyāna Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 19 guests

>