Finding and leaving the teacher ...

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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ground
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by ground »

gregkavarnos wrote:
What is the role of "teacher" in the context of liberation which may enable one to be of help for others to get liberated?
When does "teacher" become bondage?
Does "benefit" have to have a certain quality before "leaving" is undertaken?
Can "benefit" arise when "leaving" is rejected?
That's more like it! :twothumbsup: Now you are not positing a view but seeking answers to questions that concern you!
Neither "you" nor "me".

In order to investigate into sample questions like these (further questions may be involved) the following hypothesis has been put forth:
TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.
Or vice versa:
Investigating into the hypothesis may raise questions like these sample questions.


Kind regards
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Grigoris
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Grigoris »

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
What is the role of "teacher" in the context of liberation which may enable one to be of help for others to get liberated?
When does "teacher" become bondage?
Does "benefit" have to have a certain quality before "leaving" is undertaken?
Can "benefit" arise when "leaving" is rejected?
That's more like it! :twothumbsup: Now you are not positing a view but seeking answers to questions that concern you!
Neither "you" nor "me".

In order to investigate into sample questions like these (further questions may be involved) the following hypothesis has been put forth:
TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.

As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.
Or vice versa:
Investigating into the hypothesis may raise questions like these sample questions.


Kind regards
One step forward 84,000 steps backwards!
What a guy!
:namaste:
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Blue Garuda
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Blue Garuda »

Just a small point:

If a teacher has been of benefit, staying means that we lose nothing of that benefit and may gain more.

If a teacher has been of no benefit, or has nothing more to teach that is of benefit, staying means we may continue to receive no benefit, so this this the only scenario where leaving makes sense.

'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
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Adamantine
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Adamantine »

Finding and leaving a Dharma Wheel Forum companion

In order to receive nonsense, one has to find its source. Once nonsense has been received the source of nonsense should be left.

As soon as you have received nonsense from a Dharma Wheel Forum companion, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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ground
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by ground »

Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards
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Tilopa
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Tilopa »

Adamantine wrote:Finding and leaving a Dharma Wheel Forum companion

In order to receive nonsense, one has to find its source. Once nonsense has been received the source of nonsense should be left.

As soon as you have received nonsense from a Dharma Wheel Forum companion, immediately leave him.

Never settle down.


Thoughts?


Kind regards
It's not hard to find the source of nonsense on this thread. :tongue:
muni
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by muni »

Yeshe wrote:Just a small point:

If a teacher has been of benefit, staying means that we lose nothing of that benefit and may gain more.

If a teacher has been of no benefit, or has nothing more to teach that is of benefit, staying means we may continue to receive no benefit, so this this the only scenario where leaving makes sense.

'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
what is the meaning of grasshopper here?
Blue Garuda
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Blue Garuda »

muni wrote:
Yeshe wrote:Just a small point:

If a teacher has been of benefit, staying means that we lose nothing of that benefit and may gain more.

If a teacher has been of no benefit, or has nothing more to teach that is of benefit, staying means we may continue to receive no benefit, so this this the only scenario where leaving makes sense.

'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
what is the meaning of grasshopper here?

'Grasshopper' students hop from guru to guru and never settle long enough to derive much benefit.

The other 'grasshopper' reference to TV was a bit of a pun realted to the Kung Fu TV series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyJRXvPNRo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdsZ3wnElo&NR=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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muni
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by muni »

thank you Yeshe. May all have all benefits.


The teacher can send one away, not? But this as part of the teaching. A teacher never neglect to help his diciples.
still it happens one get this teaching from such teacher, another teaching from another teacher, dependent of many like of so called karmic destiny, karmic condition and so on. If all misperception are the same, no need of many ways to offer Dharma neither and only through own known conditioned system the meaning will be revealed.

Lets' not forget those of who the teacher pass away as well.

Cheating own mind or honestly ready for dharma, then the teacher!

We all react from own known Dharma connection. When one leaves the teacher, that one "isn't" :broke: through understanding and understands no leaving ever can be in understanding. or something like that i heard.

p.s: when one get some benefit one sees mistakes in own garbage.
Last edited by muni on Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by LastLegend »

Teacher should be someone whom the student has respect for. When you respect the teacher, you will follow the teachings and practice and your practice might even surpass that of teacher since teacher might not have been able to achieve what he or she has been teaching you. This does not mean that you should blindly practice...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
It’s eye blinking.
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Grigoris
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Grigoris »

LastLegend wrote:...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
Results?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Blue Garuda
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Blue Garuda »

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards
Yup - they go from 'guru' to 'guru' and never realise that wherever they go, there they are, no further forwards.

The OP seemed to focus more on the leaving, or at least the thread has turned that way.

A focus on finding may make the leaving less likely and less frequent.
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Caz
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Caz »

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards
Ive witnessed instances of people being given solid teachings on mind training full of benifit the problem is people think reading about it an practising for few months will suddenly yeild enlightenment, Only to be disapointed to find that it doesnt...effort is key and faliure to exert results in gaining nothing.
:thinking:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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LastLegend
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by LastLegend »

gregkavarnos wrote:
LastLegend wrote:...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
Results?
:namaste:
ok
It’s eye blinking.
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Grigoris
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Grigoris »

LastLegend wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
LastLegend wrote:...if the practice does not seem to produce results you can abandon it.
Results?
:namaste:
ok
Not exactly an answer by any standards. But I guess it was only a one word question. So what does it mean when you sy that a practice does not seem to produce results? What type of results would you expect from a Chenrezig sadhana, for example? How can you know what results to expect? I mean for meditative absorption one has the jhana as an outline, but for other practices? What time frame should one allow for results to manifest? One week? Two? A month? A year? A lifetime? An incalculable eon? Get my drift?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by ground »

Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:'Grasshopper' disciples only succeed on the TV. LOL :)
"Grasshopping" may be an instance of not having received "benefit".

kind regards
Yup - they go from 'guru' to 'guru' and never realise that wherever they go, there they are, no further forwards.

The OP seemed to focus more on the leaving, or at least the thread has turned that way.

A focus on finding may make the leaving less likely and less frequent.
Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".

Kind regards
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Grigoris
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Grigoris »

TMingyur wrote:Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".
Talkin' loud sayin' nothin'!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by conebeckham »

Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".
Gotta agree with Greg on this one. I say, So What?

The "wavering," in my experience, is not caused by any such reification. The reasons are legion, but this is not one of them.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by Blue Garuda »

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
A focus on finding may make the leaving less likely and less frequent.
Fabrication of "finding" and "leaving" as being a pair of mutually exclusive and exhaustive phenomena and reification of this fabrication may entail this wavering.
But since "finding" in the sense of "having found" is a prerequisite for "leaving" it does not exclude "leaving" and "leaving" does not eliminate "having found".
And "having found" does not necessitate "having received benefit".

Kind regards
None of the aboove has anything to do with taking great care when seeking and finding a suitable guru, which may reduce the need to leave him/her.

If what you wrote above is really your view, you are accusing yourself of a nonsensical thread title and OP. ;) :anjali:
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ground
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...

Post by ground »

Yeshe wrote:If what you wrote above is really your view, you are accusing yourself of a nonsensical thread title and OP. ;) :anjali:
Actually there is no view expressed but it is left undecided. If there would be any decision then what has been put forth as hypothesis for investigation would have been an assertion.

In the context of "teacher" it is impossible to draw a line between wholesome "mind training" (lojong) and unwholesome conditioning. It is impossible on the basis of determined views. Therefore the hypothesis for investigation.

The clinging to views can cause the misconception of mere non-commitment to these views as rejection although there is just mere non-commitment.


Kind regards
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