Why are there still suffering?

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Why are there still suffering?

Postby Inge » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:43 pm

If Buddha was outside our minds, "he" would have already saved us. Do you agree?
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby meindzai » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:44 pm

Inge wrote:If Buddha was outside our minds, "he" would have already saved us. Do you agree?


Can you rephrase the question or expand upon it?

-M
"The Dharma is huge." - Rael
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Inge » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:53 pm

meindzai wrote:
Inge wrote:If Buddha was outside our minds, "he" would have already saved us. Do you agree?


Can you rephrase the question or expand upon it?

-M

If what I have been taught is correct, that Buddha has boundless wisdom, compassion, and energy, and samsara is without beginning, and if Buddha was external to our minds, he surely would have brought us to Buddhahood infinite eons ago. Do you agree?
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:09 pm

Do you agree that Buddha is external to your own mind-nature, Inge?
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Inge » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:14 pm

Jikan wrote:Do you agree that Buddha is external to your own mind-nature, Inge?

No, I don't agree to that. Do you think so?
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:35 pm

I don't accept the premise that my own nature is in a fundamental sense separable from the nature of your mind or mine, Inge.

That's why I don't accept the conclusion that suffering exists in spite of the labors of a Buddha that is outside me.

However, if I wanted to understand where suffering comes from and where wisdom arises, where should I look?
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby meindzai » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:03 pm

Inge wrote:If what I have been taught is correct, that Buddha has boundless wisdom, compassion, and energy, and samsara is without beginning, and if Buddha was external to our minds, he surely would have brought us to Buddhahood infinite eons ago. Do you agree?


Because of the law of kamma each of us is responsible for our own actions and the consequences of those. This is something the Buddha cannot do anything about. He made it pretty clear that our liberation was up to us.

-M
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Tilopa » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:47 pm

Inge wrote:If what I have been taught is correct, that Buddha has boundless wisdom, compassion, and energy, and samsara is without beginning, and if Buddha was external to our minds, he surely would have brought us to Buddhahood infinite eons ago. Do you agree?


Buddha may be external to our mind but he's not an all-powerful god. Omniscient but not omnipotent - it's an important distinction. Buddha can only teach sentient beings the path to liberation he cannot force them to follow it or do it for them. To that extent Buddhas are limited in what they can do. We create our own samsara and we can liberate ourselves and although we need help and guidance the hard work is for us alone.
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby plwk » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:15 am

...he surely would have brought us to Buddhahood infinite eons ago. Do you agree?

Some thoughts...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html
You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way.

http://cttbusa.org/vajra/vajrasutra2.asp
The Buddha told Subhuti, “A good man, or good woman, who has resolved his mind on anuttarasamyaksambodhi should think thus:
‘I should take all living beings across to extinction.
Yet when all living beings have been taken across to extinction, there actually is not a single living being who has been taken across to extinction.’ And why? Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva has a mark of self, a mark of others, a mark of living beings, or a mark of a life, then he is not a Bodhisattva.
For what reason?
Subhuti, actually there is no dharma of resolving the mind on anuttarasamyaksambodhi.

“Subhuti, what do you think?
You should not maintain that the Tathagata has this thought: ‘I shall take living beings across.’
Subhuti, do not have that thought. And why?
There actually are no living beings taken across by the Tathagata.
If there were living beings taken across by the Tathagata, then the Tathagata would have the existence of a self, of others, of living beings, and of a life. Subhuti, the existence of a self spoken of by the Tathagata is no existence of a self, but common people take it as the existence of a self.
Subhuti, common people are spoken of by the Tathagata as no common people, therefore they are called common people.

http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhi ... neng6.html
Learned Audience, all of us have now declared that we vow to deliver an infinite number of sentient beings; but what does that mean?
It does not mean that I, Hui Neng, am going to deliver them.
And who are these sentient beings within our mind?
They are the delusive mind, the deceitful mind, the evil mind, and such like minds -- all these are sentient beings.
Each of them has to deliver himself by means of his own Essence of Mind. Then the deliverance is genuine.

Now, what does it mean to deliver oneself by one's own Essence of Mind?
It means the deliverance of the ignorant, the delusive, and the vexatious beings within our own mind by means of Right Views.
With the aid of Right Views and Prajna-Wisdom the barriers raised by these ignorant and delusive beings may be broken down; so that each of them is in a position to deliver himself by his own efforts.
Let the fallacious be delivered by rightness; the deluded by enlightenment; the ignorant by wisdom; and the malevolent by benevolence.
Such is genuine deliverance.
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby remm » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:31 pm

Inge wrote:
meindzai wrote:
Inge wrote:If Buddha was outside our minds, "he" would have already saved us. Do you agree?


Can you rephrase the question or expand upon it?

-M

If what I have been taught is correct, that Buddha has boundless wisdom, compassion, and energy, and samsara is without beginning, and if Buddha was external to our minds, he surely would have brought us to Buddhahood infinite eons ago. Do you agree?


The Buddha only shows you the way. He's not some sort of mighty deity that can liberate you in the same sense Jesus can be a bridge for humans to the Kingdom of Heaven. It doesn't work like that with Buddhism. You have to cultivate wisdom and blessings over many lifetimes in order to achieve the state of Unsurpassed and Equal Awakening. At the same time, I think that plwk's reply to you using the Diamond Sutra was a really good answer to your question as well. You should look into it.

http://cttbusa.org/vajra/vajrasutra2.asp
The Buddha told Subhuti, “A good man, or good woman, who has resolved his mind on anuttarasamyaksambodhi should think thus:
‘I should take all living beings across to extinction.
Yet when all living beings have been taken across to extinction, there actually is not a single living being who has been taken across to extinction.’ And why? Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva has a mark of self, a mark of others, a mark of living beings, or a mark of a life, then he is not a Bodhisattva.
For what reason?
Subhuti, actually there is no dharma of resolving the mind on anuttarasamyaksambodhi.

“Subhuti, what do you think?
You should not maintain that the Tathagata has this thought: ‘I shall take living beings across.’
Subhuti, do not have that thought. And why?
There actually are no living beings taken across by the Tathagata.
If there were living beings taken across by the Tathagata, then the Tathagata would have the existence of a self, of others, of living beings, and of a life. Subhuti, the existence of a self spoken of by the Tathagata is no existence of a self, but common people take it as the existence of a self.
Subhuti, common people are spoken of by the Tathagata as no common people, therefore they are called common people.
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby muni » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:03 am

The answer of Thich Nhat Hanh: mindfulness to understanding and compassion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG3PEoJpYBs :namaste:
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Inge » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:03 pm

According to what I have read the Bodhisattvas have the ability to manifest as any kind of being, and also to divide into myriads of bodies, in order to teach all beings what they need to be taught in order to proceed towards Buddhahood. As for Buddhas, they are beyond limitation and can manifest as absolutely anything? Therefore if what I wrote is correct I can assume that whatever I experience this is exactly what I need. And that all I experience is actually the manifestation of Buddha. That I in fact are at all time being guided, or carried, by the Buddhas straight to unsurpassed enlightenment. Is this correct thinking?
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby ground » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:41 pm

Inge wrote:As for Buddhas, they are beyond limitation and can manifest as absolutely anything? Therefore if what I wrote is correct I can assume that whatever I experience this is exactly what I need. And that all I experience is actually the manifestation of Buddha. That I in fact are at all time being guided, or carried, by the Buddhas straight to unsurpassed enlightenment. Is this correct thinking?


In the "The Confession of Transgressions Sutra" it reads:

These and all the Tathagatas, Arhats, Completely
Enlightened Ones and Bhagavans to be found in all the
worlds in [all] ten directions - all the living Bhagavan
Buddhas in existence – please heed me:

In this rebirth, and in all my rebirth states since
beginningless time on the wheel of sarnsara, I have
committed, encouraged others to do, and rejoiced over sinful
actions. I have stolen offerings ...

Whatever my karmic obscurations may be,
I confess them all, admit them all, reveal them all, uncover them all before
the Bhagavan Buddhas, who have primal wisdom, the eyes
[of compassion), who have power, valid cognition, and see
with their omniscience. In future I will cut myself off from such
actions, and will refrain from them.
...
Just as the Bhagavan Buddhas of the past
dedicated their root virtues, and just as the Bhagavan
Buddhas yet to come will dedicate their root virtues, and
just as the Bhagavan Buddhas still alive at present dedicate
their root virtues, so dedicate mine.I confess each and every
sin. I rejoice over all merit. I plead with all the Buddhas and
petition them: may I gain holiest and supreme primal
wisdom. I fold my hands to all the present Victorious Ones
still alive and supreme among humans, to all Victorious Ones
of the past, and to all of time yet to come; may I come under
your protection
.



Kind regards
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby catmoon » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:22 am

Inge wrote:According to what I have read the Bodhisattvas have the ability to manifest as any kind of being, and also to divide into myriads of bodies, in order to teach all beings what they need to be taught in order to proceed towards Buddhahood. As for Buddhas, they are beyond limitation and can manifest as absolutely anything? Therefore if what I wrote is correct I can assume that whatever I experience this is exactly what I need. And that all I experience is actually the manifestation of Buddha. That I in fact are at all time being guided, or carried, by the Buddhas straight to unsurpassed enlightenment. Is this correct thinking?



I think so. However, all the Buddhas can do is provide opportunities, and perhaps some fortuitous circumstances. No number of miraculous excercises of their abilities will advance you a single inch down the path, unless you decide to take the next step yourself. The path to enlightenment does not involve finding enlightenment, being given enlightenment or being swept into enlightenment. Part of the enlightenment process is learning how to generate enlightenment all by yourself.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby ground » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:49 am

catmoon wrote:Part of the enlightenment process is learning how to generate enlightenment all by yourself.


And perhaps to find out what role "imagination" plays in that context which includes the manifestations of buddhas and bodhisattvas ... and to discover the scope of the term "imagination".

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Re: Why are there still suffering?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:20 am

Inge wrote:If Buddha was outside our minds, "he" would have already saved us. Do you agree?
If he could save us I am sure he would save us, the question is do we want to be saved? Seems to me the whole deal is like a lifeguard throwing us a life buoy and pulling us out of the water and then we throw away the life buoy and jump straight back in again!

So, for me, it is quite simple: We are suffering as a consequence of our deluded actions and will continue to suffer until we overcome our ignorance.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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