Sooner or Later: Yogacara

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:58 am

Yeshe D. wrote:
TMingyur wrote:For me? Honestly, it is irrelevant.

If the Mahāyāna dharma is irrelevant to you, why are you here?


I understand "Mahayana dharma" as bodhisattvayana. There is no necessary link to speculative views which may be seen differently by sectarians. I hope this answers your question.


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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Jnana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:02 am

TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe D. wrote:
TMingyur wrote:For me? Honestly, it is irrelevant.

If the Mahāyāna dharma is irrelevant to you, why are you here?


I understand "Mahayana dharma" as bodhisattvayana. There is no necessary link to speculative views which may be seen differently by sectarians.

And what, specifically, do you deem to be speculative about cittamātra?

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:07 am

Yeshe D. wrote:And what, specifically, do you deem to be speculative about cittamātra?


The OP stated "consciousness only" in context of "Yogacara". And this is what I am referring to.

So I do not differentiate between intention (of whom?) and selection of words. If the selection of words necessarily results in reduction I call it speculation.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Astus » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:37 am

TMingyur wrote:The OP stated "consciousness only" in context of "Yogacara". And this is what I am referring to.



I don't follow you. Cittamatra and Yogacara are almost the same words. :thinking:
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Jnana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:45 am

TMingyur wrote:If the selection of words necessarily results in reduction I call it speculation.

All words are merely conventional constructs. Whether one translates vijñaptimātra as "consciousness only" or as "mere cognizance" or as "mere cognitive representation," the meaning should be clarified and understood with reference to the Dharma being presented. Thus there will be no recourse to mistaking teachings for "speculation" or "mental proliferation," both of which are antithetical to Dharma.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:08 pm

From the Dhammapada:

Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā manoseṭṭhā manomayā
Manasā ce paduṭṭhena bhāsati vā karoti vā
Tato naṃ dukkhamanveti cakkaṃ'va vahato padaṃ

All that we are is a result of our thought.
It is founded on our thoughts, made up of thoughts.
etc....
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If the selection of words necessarily results in reduction I call it speculation.

All words are merely conventional constructs.

This can be applied as an all-round argument for each and every unskillful view.


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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Jnana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:29 pm

TMingyur wrote:This can be applied as an all-round argument for each and every unskillful view.

More misdirection. Again: Whether one translates vijñaptimātra as "consciousness only" or as "mere cognizance" or as "mere cognitive representation," the meaning should be clarified and understood with reference to the Dharma being presented. Thus there will be no recourse to mistaking teachings for "speculation" or "mental proliferation" or "unskillful view," all of which are antithetical to Dharma.

All the best,

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:20 pm

Views ...
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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:55 pm

As my professor for "Birth of the Novel" said, lo these many years ago (!), "Everyone has a metaphysics, they just don't know it. You can't step over a crack in the sidewalk without a metaphysics!" :shrug:

I don't know if this is true...heh heh.....but it's appropriate. all views are limited....but useful. As TMingyur points out, Madhaymika is conceptual proliferation, in a sense, just as Yogacara is.

Emptiness of the self, and emptiness of phenomena, are certainly useful constructs. The idea that all experience is subjective contents of consciousness is also a very useful concept. All such "views" are useful if they help decrease suffering and attachment, or increase positive qualities, merit and wisdom, in the short or long term.

The meditating mind is empty of an identity, ultimately....but there can be no denying that the meditating mind is also an awareness, a sentience.
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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Dexing » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:51 am

TMingyur wrote:Dexing, you are just holding the view of a speculative philosophy. All these philosophies are conceptually going beyond the Buddha's words and hold the view that this does validate what actually is just an instance of papanca (clinging aggregates).


Kind regards


Throughout this thread all you've done is basically dropped "speculative", "views", and left.

In response to the initial post you said:

"....it is inconsistent and it is speculation and speculation is not conducive."

What exactly about the Yogācāra doctrines do you find to be speculation, and what view of a speculative philosophy am I holding? Perhaps engaging in a bit of a dialogue rather than just dropping one-liners may be more conducive here....

If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold some belief of an objective external realm. In such a case, you would be the one holding a speculative view because you have absolutely no evidence to justify such a belief.

The doctrine of consciousness-only is immediately verifiable and based completely on consistent proof, making it the rational choice here.

That being said taking into consideration that the consciousness-only doctrine is in fact a temporary system, designed to cut attachment to speculative views of an objectively existent external realm. Consciousness itself is ultimately also relinquished and Yogācāra, conforming to the Middle Way, divorced from existence and nonexistence, asserts no view- much less a "speculative" one.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby swampflower » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:25 am

"So",I say to myself, "this is deep stuff! Just what is this Yogacara/mind-only all about and why is everybody arguing...again?"
With a bit of digging I found this, which I will post and maybe some bit of light will be shed.

Trisvabhavanirdesa of Vasubandhu
translated from Tibetan
by Garfield, Jay L.


1. The imagined (parikalpita), the other-dependent (paratantra)
And the consummate (parinispanna) -
These are the three natures
Which should be deeply understood.

2. Arising through dependence on conditions and
Existing through being imagined,
It is therefore called other-dependent
And is said to be merely imaginary.

3. The external non-existence
Of what appears in the way it appears,
Since it is never otherwise,
Is known as the nature of the consummate...

4. If anything appears, it is imagined.
The way it appears is as duality.
What is the consequence of its non-existence?
The fact of non-duality!

5. What is the imagination of the non-existent?
Since what is imagined absolutely never
Exists in the way it is imagined,
It is mind that constructs that illusion.

6. Because it is a cause and an effect,
The mind has two aspects.
As the foundation consciousness it creates thought;
Known as the emerged consciousness it has seven aspects.

7. The first, because it collects the seeds
Of suffering is called `mind'.
The second, because of the constant emergence
Of the various aspects of things is so called.

8. One should think of the illusory non-existent
As threefold:
Completely ripened, grasped as other,
And as appearance.

9. The first, because it itself ripens,
Is the root consciousness.
The others are emergent consciousness,
Having emerged from the conceptualization of seer and seen.

10. Existence and non-existence, duality and unity;
Freedom from affliction and afflicted;
Through characteristics, and through distinctions,
These natures are known to be profound.

11. Since it appears as existent
Though it is non-existent,
The imagined nature
Is said to have the characteristics of existence and non-existence.

12. Since it exists as an illusory entity
And is non-existent in the way it appears
The other-dependent nature
Is said to have the characteristics of existence and non-existence.

13. Since it is the non-existence of duality
And exists as non-duality
The consummate nature
Is said to have the characteristics of existence and non-existence.

14. Moreover, since as imagined there are two aspects,
But existence and non-existence are unitary,
The nature imagined by the ignorant
Is said to be both dual and unitary.

15. Since as an object of thought it is dual,
But as a mere appearance it is unitary,
The other-dependent nature
Is said to be both dual and unitary.

16. Since it is the essence of dual entities
And is a unitary non-duality,
The consummate nature
Is said to be both dual and unitary.

17. The imagined and the other-dependent
Are said to be characterized by misery (due to ignorant craving).
The consummate is free of
The characteristic of desire.

18. Since the former has the nature of a false duality
And the latter is the non-existence of that nature,
The imagined and the consummate
Are said not to be different in characteristic.

19. Since the former has the nature of non-duality,
And the latter has the nature of non-existent duality,
The consummate and the imagined
Are said not to be different in characteristic.

20. Since the former is deceptive in the way it appears,
And the latter has the nature of its not being that way,
The other-dependent and the consummate
Are said not to be different in characteristic.

21. Since the former has the nature of a non-existent duality,
And the latter is its non-existence in the way it appears,
The other-dependent and the consummate
Are said not to be different in characteristic.

22. But conventionally,
The natures are explained in order and
Based on that one enters them
In a particular order, it is said.

23. The imagined is entirely conventional.
The other-dependent is attached to convention.
The consummate, cutting convention,
Is said to be of a different nature.

24. Having first entered into the non-existence of duality
Which is the dependent, one understands
The non-existent duality
Which is the imagined.

25. Then one enters the consummate.
Its nature is the non-existence of duality.
Therefore it is explained
To be both existent and non-existent.

26. These three natures
Have the characteristics of being non-cognizable and non-dual.
One is completely non-existent; the second is therefore non-existent.
The third has the nature of that non-existence.

27. Like an elephant that appears
Through the power of a magician's mantra --
Only the percept appears,
The elephant is completely non-existent.

28. The imagined nature is the elephant;
The other-dependent nature is the visual percept;
The non-existence of the elephant therein
Is explained to be the consummate.

29. Through the root consciousness
The nonexistent duality appears.
But since the duality is completely non-existent,
There is only a percept.

30. The root consciousness is like the mantra.
Reality can be compared to the wood.
Imagination is like the perception of the elephant.
Duality can be seen as the elephant.

31. When one understands how things are,
Perfect knowledge, abandonment,
And accomplishment --
These three characteristics are simultaneously achieved.

32. Knowledge is non-perception;
Abandonment is non-appearance;
Attainment is accomplished through non-dual perception.
That is direct manifestation.

33. Through the non-perception of the elephant,
The vanishing of its percept occurs;
And so does the perception of the piece of wood.
This is how it is in the magic show.

34. In the same way through the non-perception of duality
There is the vanishing of duality.
When it vanishes completely,
Non-dual awareness arises.

35. Through perceiving correctly,
Through seeing the non-referentiality of mental states,
Through following the three wisdoms,
One will effortlessly attain liberation.

36. Through the perception of mind-only
One achieves the non-perception of objects;
Through the non-perception of objects
There is also the non-perception of mind.

37. Through the non-duality of perception,
Arises the perception of the fundamental nature of reality.
Through the perception of the fundamental nature of reality
Arises the perception of the radiant.

38. Through the perception of the radiant,
And through achieving the three supreme Buddha-bodies,
And through possessing bodhi:
Having achieved this, the sage will benefit him/herself and others.

:yinyang:
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:56 am

Dexing wrote:What exactly about the Yogācāra doctrines do you find to be speculation, and what view of a speculative philosophy am I holding? Perhaps engaging in a bit of a dialogue rather than just dropping one-liners may be more conducive here....

If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold some belief of an objective external realm. In such a case, you would be the one holding a speculative view because you have absolutely no evidence to justify such a belief.


The speculation is its reductionism.

And you may speculate about my view as you like. I don't care.


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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Dexing » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:12 am

Okay, interesting... more vague ill-defined accusations without the slightest interest in actually discussing the topic.

This just amounts to trolling, which is a violation of the Terms of Service.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:16 am

Dexing wrote:If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold some belief of an objective external realm.


This actually proves that you are trapped by an extreme view


Dexing wrote:This just amounts to trolling, which is a violation of the Terms of Service.

And this is a typical reaction of people attached to their views when being confronted with outright rejection of their view by others.


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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:21 am

If your view would be based on experience and not just a product of thought then you would be independent of views of or rejections by others. But mere thoughts need to be protected.

It is typical that mere thought is always seeking confirmation.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Dexing » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:23 am

TMingyur wrote:
Dexing wrote:If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold some belief of an objective external realm.


This actually proves that you are trapped by an extreme view

Kind regards


And to which "extreme" does this ascribe?

You've been asked repeatedly to stop dropping the one-liner ill-defined and condescending accusations, and actually engage in the discussion. What you are doing here is trolling which is in violation of the Terms of Service.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby Dexing » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:25 am

TMingyur wrote:
Dexing wrote:This just amounts to trolling, which is a violation of the Terms of Service.

And this is a typical reaction of people attached to their views when being confronted with outright rejection of their view by others.


Kind regards


No, my friend... At this point it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I, and others, have repeatedly attempted to engage in dialogue with you to discuss your points and ours, while you show no interest, yet continue to post short negative accusations.

:namaste:
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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:26 am

Dexing wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Dexing wrote:If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold some belief of an objective external realm.


This actually proves that you are trapped by an extreme view

Kind regards


And to which "extreme" does this ascribe?


If the alternative to holding your view is "belief of an objective external realm" then it is clear that your view rejects "external" and confirms "internal" exclusively.

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

Postby ground » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:34 am

Therefore nothing excels the Buddha's words:

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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