Why teaching hope?

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Why teaching hope?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:51 pm

Dear Friends,

I had seen and read (wrote*) that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope. I don't know a little about Sutras, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of hope?

Is there any Buddha Dhrama that is teaching hope?
Is there any Buddha Dharma that is leads to grasping on hope?
Is there any Buddha Dharma that is praising hope?

Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces to teach hope?
Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that keeps one grasping on hope?
Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces the praising of hope?

(edit: no wrote sorry my english*)
Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Huifeng » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:07 pm

Hi Hanzze,

What do you mean by "hope" here?

And could you give some examples of such teachings, so that we can see them first hand? (Rather than they being some mysterious "some people say..." sort of thing.)

Huifeng :namaste:
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Jnana » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:44 pm

Hanzze wrote:I had seen and wrote that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope.

Trungpa Rinpoche (from Illusion's Game):

    Creating this kind of hope is one of the most prominent features of spiritual materialism.…There are so many promises involved. So much hope is planted in your heart. This is playing on your weakness. It creates further confusion with regard to pain. You forget about the pain altogether and get involved in looking for something other than the pain. And that itself is pain.…That is what we will go through unless we understand that the basic requirement for treading the spiritual path is hopelessness.

Trungpa Rinpoche (from Crazy Wisdom):

    We go on deeper and deeper and deeper till we reach the point where there is no answer. There is not even a question. Both question and answer die simultaneously at some point. They begin to rub each other too closely and they short circuit each other in some way. At that point, we tend to give up hope of an answer, or of anything whatsoever, for that matter. We have no more hope, none whatsoever. We are purely hopeless. We could call this transcending hope, if you would like to put it in more genteel terms.

    The hopelessness is the essence of crazy wisdom. It is hopeless, utterly hopeless. It is beyond hopelessness. (Of course it would be possible, if we tried to turn that hopelessness itself into some kind of solution, to become confused again, to say the least.)

    The process is of going further in and in and in without any reference point of spirituality, without any reference point of a saviour, without any reference point of goodness or badness - without any reference points whatsoever! Finally, we might reach the basic level of hopelessness, of transcending hope. This does not mean we end up zombies. We still have all the energies; we have all the fascination of discovery, of seeing this process unfolding and unfolding and unfolding, going on and on. This process of discovery automatically recharges itself so that we keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. This process of going deeper and deeper is the process of crazy wisdom, and it is what characterizes a saint in the Buddhist tradition.

Traleg Rinpoche talking about hopelessness.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:17 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

I had seen and wrote that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope. I don't know a little about Sutras, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of hope?

Is there any Buddha Dhrama that is teaching hope?
Is there any Buddha Dharma that is leads to grasping on hope?
Is there any Buddha Dharma that is praising hope?

Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces to teach hope?
Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that keeps one grasping on hope?
Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces the praising of hope?


Hi Friend

I hope you are well :smile:

;)

There are such kinds of conventional sayings, but as to teachings I never came across a teachings that taught hope.

But there are teachings that teach causes and effects and therefore there may arise hopes that after having applied the right causes the right effects may arise in dependence on that :tongue: But actually I cannot see a difference here between small and great vehicle since both manifest through their followers which are human beings of more or less "ordinary" types.

Actually setting out on a path that is considered to lead to a goal implies the hope that the corresponding goal can be reached by means of this path. Otherwise who would set out on a path that doesn't lead where one wants to arrive at? :smile:

This has led some to say "The path is the goal" but isn't that a goal anyway and isn't then starting to tread a path that one hasn't trodden before based on hope too? :smile:

"Path is non-path" is the response of some but here I suspect this saying being based on the hope that "hope is non-hope" :tongue:


Kind regards
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:58 pm

Dear Friends,

you brought up a lot of samples, and those are some which I had heard before, which I had read before and the reason why I had asked here.

So let me ask one more time in the same way. Did any enlightenment being ever taught hope, ever taught the grasping on hope, ever taught to praising hope?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:32 pm

Hanzze wrote:So let me ask one more time in the same way. Did any enlightenment being ever taught hope, ever taught the grasping on hope, ever taught to praising hope?


Wasn't that what you asserted in the first place?

Ah ... wait .. you said ...
followers of the great vehicle are teaching


Please be informed that followers are not teaching but usually voicing their opinions but that qualified teachers are the ones who are teaching.

New to you?


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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby neverdowell » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:11 pm

No hope in samsara.

To develop bodhichitta, which is the actual practice, you need to develop such compassion that you simply cannot bear others being tormented by suffering. But in order to develop this compassion, you must know exactly how you yourself are plagued by suffering. And you must understand that the whole of samsara is by nature suffering. But first you must fear the lower realms, for without this you will have no repudiation of celestial and human happiness. You must therefore train your mind in the small- and medium- scope parts of the path. -- Pabongka Rinpoche
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:20 pm

:rolling:

Could it be that hope and fear has seriousness as side effect? :rolling:

Thanks Geoff for sharing me a little of the life Trungpa Rinpoche. First to read his words made me hoping and than reading he died brought me hoplessness. :rolling: Is alcohol a manifestation of fear? :rolling:

Dear Huifeng, hope in all his clothes. :rolling:

Dear TMingyur, Dharma is empty and not void. :rolling:

Dear neverdowell :rolling: so let us hope for Nirvana. :rolling:

serious :rolling:
_/\_

Fearless to resist Hope. Hopeless to resist Fear.

May all become auspicious.
The perfection of prayer without hopes or fear,
whatever auspiciousness there is of great prayer,
let that auspiciousness appear here now.


Dear friends,

and why is hope not taught, not grasped, not praised by enlighten beings?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:50 pm

Hannze

why are you here? do you want to learn something about Mahayana or what?


Kind regards
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:32 pm

Hanzze wrote:and why is hope not taught, not grasped, not praised by enlighten beings?


Hanzee, define the greater context of how you are using the word "hope". Do you mean "aspiration"?

Thanks Geoff for sharing me a little of the life Trungpa Rinpoche. First to read his words made me hoping and than reading he died brought me hoplessness. Is alcohol a manifestation of fear?


Are you so sure you're the one to judge? Do you know the entire situation you are talking about?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:41 pm

Dear mr. gordo,

_/\_ thanks for coming up with your avatar.


Trungpa Rinpoche (from Illusion's Game):

Creating this kind of hope is one of the most prominent features of spiritual materialism.…There are so many promises involved. So much hope is planted in your heart. This is playing on your weakness. It creates further confusion with regard to pain. You forget about the pain altogether and get involved in looking for something other than the pain. And that itself is pain.…That is what we will go through unless we understand that the basic requirement for treading the spiritual path is hopelessness.



Just as the questions are. No judgment, no attachment, like this girl, out of a childs pure heart.
Image

I thought it was clear that it was never taught, never taught to grasp on it, never praised. So maybe my second question was to early and just out of my opinion taken from the quotes till now.

_/\_
a bow with a smile

(I guess there there was coming up a little fear to continue to :rolling: ) :rolling:
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Huifeng » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:11 am

As far as I know, all Buddhist teachings indicate the possibility of a release from cyclic existence. For those who are trapped in the belief that there is no end to their pain, this is great hope indeed.
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby muni » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:16 pm

neverdowell wrote:No hope in samsara.


You mean no grasping hopes. And out of such, no hope is.
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby catmoon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:02 am

I just can't figure out how to resolve what Huifeng with this line of reasoning:

Hope is a form of expectation. If things go as expected there will be elation, followed by the suffering of change when the elation ends; if not then there will be direct suffering. Therefore hope is all about getting knotted up in samsara.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:56 am

Dear friends,

when it is like that, that hope is not taught, not taught to grasp, not praised by enlighten beings, please let me ask one more time,
why is hope not taught, not taught to grasp on, not praised by enlighten beings?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:09 am

Hope is implicit in the Buddhist path, it's in the Four Noble Truths.

When you look at the world and all its sufferings, you might give up the thought that things could be different from how they are. You would give up hope and lose heart in trying to improve things -but true cessations and true paths teach that things can be different. They teach you not to give up hope but simply to work on purifying your mind and all happiness and good results will come for ourselves and others.

Renunciation is a message of hope
Bodhichitta is a message of hope
Emptiness is a message of hope
Tantra is a message of hope - because of it I can become a pure being.

All suffering comes from impure minds, and all happiness from pure minds. If we work to purify our mind using the methods of sutra and tantra that Buddha taught, we will eventually attain the Pure Land and be able to help all living beings attain the same. This, for me, is a message of hope.
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:40 am

Dear Tsongkhapafan,

it might be that somebody is grasping on hope, but is he really on the way?
It might be that somebody is grasping on future but will he come to the present?

It might be that some are using an aim to send some on the run, but where will they go?
It might be that some use hope to keep people from going further, but will they arrive?

Full of hope one does nothing or he runs for an aim that does not exist.

Hope is an construction in the future, that does not exist. It has nothing to do with the present and it has nothing to do with the reality.

It might keep a dream alive, it might keep an illusion alive, it might be a reason the wandering-on, it might keep a religion alive.
But could somebody seriously take it as something that was taught be an enlighten being?

Renunciation is not a matter of hope, to let go of hope is renunciation.
Bodhichitta has no hope inside it is a chitta without hope and fear.
Emptiness is not empty when there is hope, hope may fill all the space of your mind.

It might be one of the skill fullest Tantric practice to cut ones hope of.

With hope we are not able even to help our self, and hope has never healed a single pain.

Dear Tsongkhapafan,

it might be your feeling even it might be ones way, but is there a Sutra of an enlighten being which is promoting being to hope?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:31 am

TMingyur wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

I had seen and wrote that many followers of the great vehicle are teaching hope, grasping on hope, praising hope. I don't know a little about Sutras, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of hope?

Is there any Buddha Dhrama that is teaching hope?
Is there any Buddha Dharma that is leads to grasping on hope?
Is there any Buddha Dharma that is praising hope?

Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces to teach hope?
Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that keeps one grasping on hope?
Is there any Bodhisattva precept or vow that forces the praising of hope?


Hi Friend

I hope you are well :smile:

;)

There are such kinds of conventional sayings, but as to teachings I never came across a teachings that taught hope.

But there are teachings that teach causes and effects and therefore there may arise hopes that after having applied the right causes the right effects may arise in dependence on that :tongue: But actually I cannot see a difference here between small and great vehicle since both manifest through their followers which are human beings of more or less "ordinary" types.

Actually setting out on a path that is considered to lead to a goal implies the hope that the corresponding goal can be reached by means of this path. Otherwise who would set out on a path that doesn't lead where one wants to arrive at? :smile:

This has led some to say "The path is the goal" but isn't that a goal anyway and isn't then starting to tread a path that one hasn't trodden before based on hope too? :smile:

"Path is non-path" is the response of some but here I suspect this saying being based on the hope that "hope is non-hope" :tongue:


Kind regards


Yes, there is neither optimism nor pessimism in teaching, for example, karma.

If we create the causes and conditions for the relief of suffering and experience some joy, optimism may result in that we understand that more joy may arise from causes and conditions we may create.

But it is better to be mindful of our actions and be motivated by the benefit of others than to 'hope' optimistically for our own happiness.

For ourselves, if we believe that there is a path to enligthtenment and that enlightenment may be attained by any being, then we need some optimism that we also can attain it or we would not follow the path.

In that sense, teachings which assert that a person may become enlightened through practice requires no hope, but may well be the (useful?) cause of it anyway in beings which have not yet reached a state of tranquil abiding and the quenching of desire.
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby meindzai » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:25 pm

Part of Speech: noun
Definition: longing; dream
Synonyms: Utopia, achievement, ambition, anticipation, aspiration, assumption, belief, bright side, buoyancy, castles in air, concern, confidence, daydream, dependence, desire, endurance, expectancy, expectation, faith, fancy, fool's paradise, fortune, gain, goal, greedy glutton, hopefulness, light at end of tunnel, optimism, pipe dream, promise, promised land, prospect, reliance, reverie, reward, rosiness, sanguineness, security, stock, thing with feathers, wish

http://thesaurus.com/browse/hope

The bolder words are concepts I have come across in the teachings. There is the aspiration for awakening, for example, or in Mahayana the aspiration to save sentient beings. There is the desire that fuels suffering (the "bad" kind?) and then there is the desire one should generate in pursuit of the goal to awaken. Faith is "saddha" and is not blind faith, but the kind of faith you cultivate through practice. I was once given the analogy of sitting in a chair you've sat in before. You have faith that the 10,000th time you sit in the chair it won't collapse(yet can you be certain?)

There is the wish for other beings to be well, but tempered by the right understanding that their happiness does not depend on your wish, but their own karma.

-M
"The Dharma is huge." - Rael
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Re: Why teaching hope?

Postby Huifeng » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:33 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear friends,

when it is like that, that hope is not taught, not taught to grasp, not praised by enlighten beings, please let me ask one more time,
why is hope not taught, not taught to grasp on, not praised by enlighten beings?


It seems, Hanzze, that you are overlooking or ignoring some of the posts above, when you say "when it is like that, that hope is not taught ... why is hope not taught...?"
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