Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby Jnana » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:42 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:What is subtle here?

Well, we're talking about very profound and rarefied levels of spiritual development and abilities here. Simply stated, these subtle obscurations are the cognitive obscurations which differentiate an eighth to tenth stage bodhisattva from a buddha, in terms of realization, powers, etc.

Whatever system of practice one engages in: Yogācāra, Mādhyamaka, Pureland, Chan, Vajrayāna, etc., the bodhisattva stages are still valid. Just because someone has entered the Vajrayāna doesn't mean that they have the realization of a first stage bodhisattva, let alone a tenth stage bodhisattva or a buddha.

kalden yungdrung wrote:Is defiled and purified not based on karma?

The purified portion of the basis (āśraya) is revealed by correctly and successfully engaging in the five paths and progressing through the ten stages according to the pāramitāyāna teachings.

kalden yungdrung wrote:I guess that you mean here the Alaya Vinjana where all karmic traces are stored?

Yes. And even though the skillful roots are said to be stored in the ālayavijñāna, they are not part of the ālayavijñāna per se, because they impede and eliminate defilements.

kalden yungdrung wrote:What is in your opinion the better name for Cittamatra?

Yogācāra.

All the best,

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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:17 am

conebeckham wrote:Kalden Yungdrug-

The "subtle obscurations" is actually a technical term or translation....these are the obscurations to omniscience. The "gross obscurations" are those that need to be eliminated or purified (or whatever!) for liberation from Samsara.



Tashi delek CB, :)

Thanks for your reply.

Subtle- and gross obscurations that is what is difficult to understand here.
I guess that all obscurations block the ultimate awareness of our inherent present Buddhahood.

So what remains / is left there if we obtain / realize our inherent Nature?

But the one who realizes a "certain" degree can have some subtle obscurations like in the case of the Arhat, i guess. That means that some realizations would be not for 100% possible to obtain, due to these little obscurations who can block the process.

So what are these tiny obscurations? :shock:

Best wishes for our individual Dharma practice

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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby kirtu » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:34 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:But the one who realizes a "certain" degree can have some subtle obscurations like in the case of the Arhat, i guess.


These are the obscurations to omniscience.

In general the obscurations to liberation are the emotional defilements and karma created under the influence of the three poisons (desire, hatred and ignorance) and the obscurations to omniscience is ignorance of reality, grasping at inherent existence of phenomena.

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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby conebeckham » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:25 am

I second Kirt's comments. This is what I have been taught, regarding the Two Obscurations, their causes, and their effects.
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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:39 am

conebeckham wrote:I second Kirt's comments. This is what I have been taught, regarding the Two Obscurations, their causes, and their effects.



Tashi delek CB, :)

Thanks for your replies.

Could you please explain your position about the subtle and grosser causes and results?

Thanks in advance for your attention


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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:55 pm

Kalden Yungdrug-

It's a big subject. There are two kinds of obscurations, the gross and the subtle. In Yogacara, in all it's forms I'm aware of, these obscurations are the defilements and karma of past lives and actions. In general, the gross obscurations are those defilements and karmic "traces" which bind us to samsara.....actions, mental habits and states, factors of personality, of "self," and whatnot. The subtle obscurations are those factors that "block" omniscience. It is possible to be "liberated" from Samsara, but to not be omniscient. There's some question as to whether this "liberation" can be permanent or not--that's a tangent. But Buddhahood is defined as both permanent release from Samsara, or permanent liberation, as well as perfect and permanent omniscience and capacity, full enlightenment.

The subtle obscurations are those which cause the arising of seeming duality. They're sort of latencies which impute existence from the "side of the object." In a sense, they're more subtle and more fundamental.
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Re: Cittamattra/Yogachara - how to purify the latent seeds?

Postby Jnana » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:26 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Could you please explain your position about the subtle and grosser causes and results?

For more on the three pure bhūmis and the obscurations abandoned on each of these bhūmis, see Chapter 9 of the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra (Powers' translation includes informative endnotes) and also the poetically inspiring Daśabhūmika Sūtra (Chapter 26 of Cleary's translation of the Avataṃsaka Sūtra).

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