How do monks put up with celibacy?

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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:29 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:One who as elderly really removed all desire for sex is the exception not the norm.

I have attended to the last years of my father who passed in his nineties, at various homes for the elderly and finally in hospice care. That is simply not my experience.

If I do find one.... a partially realized person I will find and I will prostrate before them.

So I find your response initial claim and retort of no merit. I in fact resemble it to something I stepped upon this morning when I went out to check on the dogs.

It is a hypothetical gossip type thing mentioned of no real value.


Refute me...I order you to, or you do not....and suffer consquence, and perceived loss.



Thank you for such a considered response.

Firstly, I did not say that the elderly had voluntarily given up desirous attachment - I had actually agreed with you, but also noted that I had met some who felt liberated once that desire had disappeared, as well as the ability. I have worked in hospitals and know many olde people - your experience is no more or less valid.

You liken my response to something you trod on when you went out to check on the dogs. If you meant that you trod on a beautiful pearl then I accept the compliment.

I note that you are frequently insulting to members here, as I have ecxamined your posts. Please desist from this or I will edit or delete your offensive remarks. ;)
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:38 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:These are perhaps serious allegations..."[b]However, there are records of 'corruption' within Tibetan Budhism, for example, where fully ordained monks have used young boys as sexual 'consorts' and also more modern stories of sexual exploitation including, for example, the transmission of AIDS. (In the latter case I would prefer only to reveal details via PM.)"[/b]I don't state such things exist and or do not exist, but why only specifically Tibetan Buddhism? And then why are claims made and allergations stated but certain ones kept private?
It seems if claims are publically made such should be rightfully made public in entireity?

Or is this just a gossipy item?
If such I will completly disregard.....if not I must consider it fully, not just certain revealed parts. As I draw my practice from Tibetan Buddhism source.
.



Use Google to discover the former re. exploited boys - examples are widely publicised from the past. I know of no current cases, but that would be unusual, as Catholics discovered.

I am Gelugpa - why would I be more upset at sexual exploitation than someone completely outside TB? And why would I assume Tibetan monastics to be universally pure in practice?

As for the latter, I refer to a friend whose guru sexually exploited and infected him. I will not identify him on a public thread but will provide an email address if you desire verification. I would not do so if it were idle gossip. I am astounded that you think I would reveal such details on a thread.

There are also modern examples in the FWBO and also another organisation we may not discuss here due to ToS. Lots of them.

I'm not sure why you fixated on this, but my point is simply that monks are not all able to maintain celibacy or avoid temptation. The world is full of such examples.
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby ronnewmexico » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:55 pm

OK...I get it, one may recount rumor of.."stories of sexual exploitation including, for example, the transmission of AIDS. (In the latter case I would prefer only to reveal details via PM"

but when asked for specifics ,we are then asking for personal informations to include names of people infected with aids....at least that is what is expected to be believed.

And I say to this..."I am Gelugpa - why would I be more upset at sexual exploitation than someone completely outside TB? And why would I assume Tibetan monastics to be universally pure in practice? "

Mine is not to ask such questions, it is none of my business.

What I do know and take exception to is that Tibetan Buddhism is so characterized when I know as fact.... examples of such things may be found in very many forms of Buddhism. It is wrong to only characterize one when many so engage regardless if one is one or not. This is a general forum.
The psychology to compel one to do such is not my concern nor area of expertise.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:03 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:OK...I get it, one may recount rumor of.."stories of sexual exploitation including, for example, the transmission of AIDS. (In the latter case I would prefer only to reveal details via PM"

but when asked for specifics ,we are then asking for personal informations to include names of people infected with aids....at least that is what is expected to be believed.

And I say to this..."I am Gelugpa - why would I be more upset at sexual exploitation than someone completely outside TB? And why would I assume Tibetan monastics to be universally pure in practice? "

Mine is not to ask such questions, it is none of my business.

What I do know and take exception to is that Tibetan Buddhism is so characterized when I know as fact.... examples of such things may be found in very many forms of Buddhism. It is wrong to only characterize one when many so engage regardless if one is one or not. This is a general forum.
The psychology to compel one to do such is not my concern nor area of expertise.



Ho hum.

Read back - You are wrong - again. I mentioned that such things are probably not confined to any one culture or religion:
''I don't think it is likely to differ much across religions and cultures, but may differ according to individual circumstances, age at which they entered a monastery, previous sexual encounters, sexual preferences, opportunity, etc.''

I offered details of a specific modern case by PM yet you claim they are not offered.
I was also very clear that the AIDS case was one person.

You just want to troll me, using 'straw man arguments' about things I never said, as I note you are chasing my posts around the board. LOL :)

Sorry if facts upset you. I will also continue to delete all insults and breaches of ToS btw.

You promised not to engage with me and yet here you are doing it again. Short memory?

maitri

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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:00 am

I did send you a private email.

Chasing you around the board I certainly am not doing.
I spent the last while composeing the email and on the phone to a broker, that would be silly, time is valuable.

I guess your response stands for itself. I will not respond.

I did in fact search for your name so I may send the email(clicking on it is how it may be done). I found it in the general index however on a post you entered....maybe that is what you are referencing....it took but a minute at most though. More like 10 seconds i think.
My appologies to the initial poster for deviating from post. That most importantly must be added.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Tilopa » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:57 am

ronnewmexico wrote:These are perhaps serious allegations..."[b]However, there are records of 'corruption' within Tibetan Budhism, for example, where fully ordained monks have used young boys as sexual 'consorts' and also more modern stories of sexual exploitation including, for example, the transmission of AIDS. (In the latter case I would prefer only to reveal details via PM.)"[/b]I don't state such things exist and or do not exist, but why only specifically Tibetan Buddhism? And then why are claims made and allergations stated but certain ones kept private?
It seems if claims are publically made such should be rightfully made public in entireity?

Or is this just a gossipy item?
If such I will completly disregard.....if not I must consider it fully, not just certain revealed parts. As I draw my practice from Tibetan Buddhism source.
.


Unfortunately it's not just gossip. This refers to a scandalous situation that erupted in the 1980's which was no secret to those involved in Tibetan Buddhism at the time or to anyone else these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sel_ ... ontroversy
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:59 am

Really?

Scandles.....I know as much of scandles as anyone singular person here. Volunteer at a retreat house which form of Buddhism I will not state....the lineage holder is having dillances with about half of the females in the sangha, and some with past issues of sexual abuse with authority figures...scandles.

Books have been written of the scandles...all shape and form of scandles in every singular school of Buddhism and in every virtually every religion.

That is not the point....the question is how do monk put up with celibacy?Rumor mongering, gossip..sure we all know scandles occur have occured and will occur....stateing them for no good reason true or not....is gossip. Plain flat and simple gossip.

Scandles....anyone wants to start a thread on scandles start one. I entered in this thread to discuss the subject matter....how do monks put up with celibacy?
Not scandles.

The question I raised is why only Tibetan scandles and now the second question I raise is why scangles at all?. Gossip it is and no good can come from it.
I don't say it is true or false. I say its repeating is to no purpose.
Start a thread on scandles I will not participate.

Scandles....they make me sick. Talking about scandles.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:40 am

Individual wrote:
Aemilius wrote:I was thinking of different things, according to buddhism, atleast in its tantric knowledge, there are certain states of mind that are similar: orgasm, sleep, fainting and death. In these the mind experiences what is called "energy (or prana) entering the central channel (avadhuti)", it also true of concentrated states of mind. These mental states are similar to orgasm, or orgasm is similar to them. It happens also when an artist is very concentrated in the creative process or in the performing arts in an act of intensive performance. This is well-known too, and in accordance with the tantric view and practice. This is not always the case however, must be emphasized, and there is faked "artistic intensity", etc...

It would be very odd for a person to experience sexual arousal or release from meditating or doing artwork. When they say they are similar I think what is meant is that they are similar in terms of the subtle body and concentration of energy, but not similar in terms of the gross body and mundane thoughts & feelings, like the experience of physical pleasure. Art and meditation can be reflections of sub-conscious libido, but are not the same thing as conscious sexual desire and fulfillment.

To answer your original question: What is called "abstinence," is refraining from conscious sexual desire and fulfillment. But one could also refer to refraining from subconscious sexual desire and fulfillment (if possible?) as a form of abstinence as well. Almost anything that could be said of conscious sexual desire could equally be said of subconscious libido, although it is not necessarily skillful to say so, nor is it necessarily skillful to abstain from conscious and subconscious sexual desire and fulfillment. For the average person, conscious sexual desire is enough of a burden; concerning themselves with the subconscious sexual desire would be just another burden. For the superior person, all sexual desire -- conscious, subconscious, and whatever might be beyond -- is cut off entirely. Any entertaining of that desire is only the context in which wisdom is accumulated. When there is the final accumulation of wisdom and "sattva," is removed from "bodhisattva," leaving only bodhi, in that case sex and art are no longer necessary. In the meantime, they can be necessary.


Then what is "fulfilment"? Do you equate it with orgasm? Or is orgasm just an aspect of it ?
Attaining the Dhyanas is also a fulfilment, dhyana contains the elements of priti, sukha and equanimity, it is in some respects similar to orgasm, bodhisattvas do not refrain from states of dhyana. In the teaching of the Five paths and Ten bhumis the third and fourth path are said to correspond to the ten bhumis, and it is said that in those stages meditation becomes Meditation.
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Individual » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:49 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Individual wrote:
Aemilius wrote:I was thinking of different things, according to buddhism, atleast in its tantric knowledge, there are certain states of mind that are similar: orgasm, sleep, fainting and death. In these the mind experiences what is called "energy (or prana) entering the central channel (avadhuti)", it also true of concentrated states of mind. These mental states are similar to orgasm, or orgasm is similar to them. It happens also when an artist is very concentrated in the creative process or in the performing arts in an act of intensive performance. This is well-known too, and in accordance with the tantric view and practice. This is not always the case however, must be emphasized, and there is faked "artistic intensity", etc...

It would be very odd for a person to experience sexual arousal or release from meditating or doing artwork. When they say they are similar I think what is meant is that they are similar in terms of the subtle body and concentration of energy, but not similar in terms of the gross body and mundane thoughts & feelings, like the experience of physical pleasure. Art and meditation can be reflections of sub-conscious libido, but are not the same thing as conscious sexual desire and fulfillment.

To answer your original question: What is called "abstinence," is refraining from conscious sexual desire and fulfillment. But one could also refer to refraining from subconscious sexual desire and fulfillment (if possible?) as a form of abstinence as well. Almost anything that could be said of conscious sexual desire could equally be said of subconscious libido, although it is not necessarily skillful to say so, nor is it necessarily skillful to abstain from conscious and subconscious sexual desire and fulfillment. For the average person, conscious sexual desire is enough of a burden; concerning themselves with the subconscious sexual desire would be just another burden. For the superior person, all sexual desire -- conscious, subconscious, and whatever might be beyond -- is cut off entirely. Any entertaining of that desire is only the context in which wisdom is accumulated. When there is the final accumulation of wisdom and "sattva," is removed from "bodhisattva," leaving only bodhi, in that case sex and art are no longer necessary. In the meantime, they can be necessary.


Then what is "fulfilment"? Do you equate it with orgasm? Or is orgasm just an aspect of it ?
Attaining the Dhyanas is also a fulfilment, dhyana contains the elements of priti, sukha and equanimity, it is in some respects similar to orgasm, bodhisattvas do not refrain from states of dhyana. In the teaching of the Five paths and Ten bhumis the third and fourth path are said to correspond to the ten bhumis, and it is said that in those stages meditation becomes Meditation.

Fulfillment conventionally is when desirable objects of body and mind are attained. Orgasm is just one of these objects. Supreme fulfillment is when desire itself is cut off.
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Re: How do monks put up with celibacy?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:41 pm

Individual wrote:Fulfillment conventionally is when desirable objects of body and mind are attained. Orgasm is just one of these objects. Supreme fulfillment is when desire itself is cut off.


So in orgasm desire is cut off, desire ceases because the object of desire is attained, and hence it can't exist anymore.
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