Buddha-nature

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby conebeckham » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:35 pm

There is nothing that is not conditioned.


I would ask about the Dharmadhatu, or the Dharmakaya, but I assume your answer would be that they are not "things," yes?
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby muni » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:55 pm

TMingyur wrote:
muni wrote:
TMingyur wrote:There is nothing that is not conditioned. But there are lots of conditioned fantasies about "unconditioned" or "absolute"


Kind regards


It is own dual mind what solidifies external things, forms conceptual fabrications to classify appearances as fantasies.


That appears to be a rather dualistic and conditioned statement

Kind regards


It is not the appaerance, object, sentence, meaning, which is conditioned it is our own grasping to "it".
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:56 pm

You two sound like the Mad Hatter and March Hare in Alice & Wonderland. :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:11 pm

Let's keep this going, Muni and TMingyur.

There is nothing that is not conditioned. But there are lots of conditioned fantasies about "unconditioned" or "absolute"

It is own dual mind what solidifies external things, forms conceptual fabrications to classify appearances as fantasies.

That appears to be a rather dualistic and conditioned statement

It is not the appaerance, object, sentence, meaning, which is conditioned it is our own grasping to "it".


This is where we are right now...

And now, what could be said, if this continues:

And you make yet another dualistic statement. Why distinguish our grasping from "it"?

It is not a distinction I make; it is distinguished in reality beyond words and logic. If the grasping and "it" were the same thing, what is to be gained from dharma practice, from meditation?

How can it be beyond words and logic when you're using words and logic right there? There is nothing lost and nothing gained.

I am using words and logic, but they are only a manifestation of mind. There is nothing gained or lost -- really? Then why do you ever do anything? Do you really see things this way?

A "manifestation of mind" meaning what? What kind of mind? It's a conditioned mind, simply a conceptual formation that create the basis for the words that follow. I don't see things as "nothing gained or lost," but this is how Buddhas see things. It's in the Diamond Sutra, for instance.

The Diamond Sutra? If you understand it correctly, the Diamond Sutra is all just empty pages. It's a manifestation of mind, but "mind" meaning "no mind", the unconditioned mind: emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Also, how do you really know how Buddhas see things? Just based on the Diamond Sutra?

I could write a thousand pages like this. It's a debate that could go on for eternity.

And still, there would be suffering and ignorance. :)

Two philosophers, both with poisoned arrows in their chests, debating the "meaning of the poisoned arrow" and both would still die. :)

I like Hanzze's post:

Hanzze wrote:empty

Yes! :)
Last edited by Individual on Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:13 pm

TMingyur wrote:There is nothing that is not conditioned. But there are lots of conditioned fantasies about "unconditioned" or "absolute"


Kind regards

muni wrote:It is own dual mind what solidifies external things, forms conceptual fabrications to classify appearances as fantasies.

TMingyur wrote:That appears to be a rather dualistic and conditioned statement

Kind regards

muni wrote:It is not the appaerance, object, sentence, meaning, which is conditioned it is our own grasping to "it".


Where is this grasping evidenced? In the characters the words consist of or is it in between?


Kind regards
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:15 pm

TMingyur wrote:Where is this grasping evidenced? In the characters the words consist of or is it in between?

Asking yourself that question is wise. Asking others that question is contentious. :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:16 pm

Individual wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Where is this grasping evidenced? In the characters the words consist of or is it in between?

Asking yourself that question is wise. Asking others that question is contentious. :)


You are not very helpful.

Help me. I cannot find it.

Kind regards
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:21 pm

conebeckham wrote:I would ask about the Dharmadhatu, or the Dharmakaya, but I assume your answer would be that they are not "things," yes?


These I cannot find either. Not to mention Buddha nature


So the question is: Is mere absence conditioned or not?

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby conebeckham » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:39 pm

These I cannot find either. Not to mention Buddha nature


Well, two questions, then--where did you look? And what did you use to look?

So the question is: Is mere absence conditioned or not?


What is mere absence, and how can we perceive it?
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby muni » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:43 pm

ego's habitual tendencies, or the subject which grasps to object: own projections.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:58 pm

When the evil one cannot get us to hold onto foolish views, he tempts us into unnecessary debate over clever ones.

The answer to all these questions is the same: Inside and beyond this world. :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:00 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Individual wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Where is this grasping evidenced? In the characters the words consist of or is it in between?

Asking yourself that question is wise. Asking others that question is contentious. :)


You are not very helpful.

Help me. I cannot find it.

In order to find it, you have to look. We are just talking about the signpost. :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby catmoon » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:04 pm

TMingyur wrote:There is nothing that is not conditioned. But there are lots of conditioned fantasies about "unconditioned" or "absolute"


Kind regards



What about Nirvana?
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:11 pm

catmoon wrote:
TMingyur wrote:There is nothing that is not conditioned. But there are lots of conditioned fantasies about "unconditioned" or "absolute"


Kind regards



What about Nirvana?


Again: is mere absence conditioned or not?

Since nirvana does not "happen" without causes and conditions (8fold path) it seems to be conditioned which does not exclude that the cessation is permanent one it has happened.

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby catmoon » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:18 pm

TMingyur wrote:
catmoon wrote:
TMingyur wrote:There is nothing that is not conditioned. But there are lots of conditioned fantasies about "unconditioned" or "absolute"


Kind regards



What about Nirvana?


Again: is mere absence conditioned or not?

Since nirvana does not "happen" without causes and conditions (8fold path) it seems to be conditioned which does not exclude that the cessation is permanent one it has happened.

Kind regards


I'm pretty sure Buddha was referring to Nirvana when he said "There is the unconditioned..."

Monks, if the unconditioned without birth, without becoming, without causes, and without creation did not exist, the escape from the conditioned with birth, with becoming, with causes, and with creation would not appear in this world.

Monks, because there is the unconditioned without birth, without becoming, without causes, and without creation, the escape from the conditioned with birth, with becoming, with causes, and with creation does exist.

(The Pali Tipitaka, Siamrat, book 17,
Sanyuttanika Sagathavagga, Sections 198-199, page 132-136).

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:24 pm

catmoon wrote:I'm pretty sure Buddha was referring to Nirvana when he said "There is the unconditioned..."


Did he?

It is a matter of context.

The Buddha often used metaphors.

The conditioned cessation of conditioned rebirth may also be called the "unconditioned". Why? Because there is being which is no more conditioned by karma and afflictions.

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby catmoon » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:25 pm

Sry I snuck in a late edit to my last post, adding a quote.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:26 pm

Ah you added a quote ... that seems to match my interpretation

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby conebeckham » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:58 pm

If one says, "This is it," there is nothing to show.
If one says, "This is not it," there is nothing to deny.
The true nature of phenomena,
which transcends conceptual understanding, is unconditioned.
May conviction be gained in the ultimate, perfect truth.


From Rangjung Dorje's Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:38 am

Here's another translation of the same stanza, with the preceding stanza also, which is helpful, I think....

It doesn't exist; even Buddhas do not see it.
It doesn't NOT exist; it is the origin of Samsara and Nirvana.
No contradiction; conjunction, the middle way.
May I realize the pure being of mind, free from extremes.

If one says, "It is this," nothing has been posited.
If one says, "It is not this," nothing has been denied.
Unconditioned pure being transcends intellect.
May I gain conviction in the ultimate position.
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