Buddha-nature

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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby conebeckham » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:57 pm

Individual, as you say, be honest With yourself.....Ask yourself this: have you suffered recently, in any way?

If so, you are not a Tathagata.

Simple.

Having Buddha Nature and being Buddha are two diffferent things. And it's not merely a conscious decision.

Tathagata is beyond thought, really. Beyond "conscious intent." It's not merely about "choice."
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:11 am

conebeckham wrote:Individual, as you say, be honest With yourself.....Ask yourself this: have you suffered recently, in any way?

If so, you are not a Tathagata.

Simple.

Having Buddha Nature and being Buddha are two diffferent things. And it's not merely a conscious decision.

Tathagata is beyond thought, really. Beyond "conscious intent." It's not merely about "choice."

In my mind, right now I'm trying to delineate all the possible ways this would play out based on how I react to this post.

None of them end well. :lol:

What you say is true from a certain point-of-view. Would that not also be the case from what I said also?

But what we both doubt is not the view, but the mind behind the view. But if those words were uttered by someone else, would we find them more palatable? If that's true, then aren't we basically engaging in the kind of self-oriented conceptualization which characterizes a deluded worldling?

I imagine your words being uttered by somebody like Retrofuturist and Ven. Huifeng, and I see myself respectfully agreeing with them. If my same words uttered by the one whose opinion you respect most, would you view them in a different light too? :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Astus » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:18 am

In the Tiantai/Tendai system you find the six identities, which is the beings relation to buddha-nature. See, Sheng-yen: Orthodox Chinese Buddhism, p. 100-103.

1. Identity to Buddhahood in Principle
2. Identity to Buddhahood in Name
3. Identity to Buddhahood in Contemplative Practice
4. Identity to Buddhahood in Semblance
5. Identity to Buddhahood in Partial Realization
6. Absolute Identity to Buddhahood
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:35 pm

Astus wrote:In the Tiantai/Tendai system you find the six identities, which is the beings relation to buddha-nature. See, Sheng-yen: Orthodox Chinese Buddhism, p. 100-103.

1. Identity to Buddhahood in Principle
2. Identity to Buddhahood in Name
3. Identity to Buddhahood in Contemplative Practice
4. Identity to Buddhahood in Semblance
5. Identity to Buddhahood in Partial Realization
6. Absolute Identity to Buddhahood

That looks like an awesome classification, one I very much agree with.

What's the difference between principle and name? The list of six items seems like it was put in a specific order, from start-to-finish. So I take it that principle is thought without name, while name is when the thought is given conscious form.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:09 pm

I had this thought this morning and would've mentioned it above, but I had to run, didn't have time to share it, and thankfully was mindful to not be late for school for sake of posting here.

Thankfully, I remembered the thought now!

The thought is this: If mental states precede physical states (our experience is made by mind, directed by mind), then what is the distinction between the thought of Buddha-nature (Identity to Buddhahood in Principle) and its actuality (Absolute Identity to Buddhahood)? If there is Identity to Buddhahood in Principle, there is already Absolute Identity to Buddhahood. Because the former is inside the mind, while the latter is only its appearance.

If this isn't true, what is this "absolute identity"? A mystical, eternal buddha-soul which, when gotten, makes a human like a god?

What in the world has absolute or intrinsic identity? Even for those things which may be regarded as absolute or intrinsic, they cannot be thought of as "things", they cannot be spoken of in terms of causality (from principle to name to contemplative practice, etc., to full Buddhahood) because if they are thing -- if they are capable of arising, they are subject to cessation, and if they are subject to arising and cessation, they are not absolute, not intrinsic, not eternal.

So, if Buddha-nature is something that can arise, it is something that can cease. If Buddha-nature is subject to arising and cessation, it is not truly Buddha-nature. It is merely called Buddha-nature. It is a nice idea, which might feel good to think and talk about, but soon it will fade away.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Astus » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:41 pm

Individual,

You can read Shengyan's book online: Orthodox Chinese Buddhism (PDF)

Go to the given chapter and read what the six identities stand for.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:16 pm

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2461&p=17494#p17494

So, for a person who goes around thinking, "I have reached Nirvana!" his fetters can easily spin out of control because he gives up tending the fire, thinking he has already reached the goal.

This seems relevant to some of the points being made here? :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby swampflower » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:12 am

Individual wrote:We are already Tathagathas. Whenever you meditate, you have already arrived at Suchness: seeing red as red, hard as hard, cold as cold, etc., and all the things of the world. And if you don't have this confidence in yourself, why and how do anything? If your five senses and mind don't even have a foothold on the world, how could you ever do anything? That's it right there!

We are already liberated. Because you have arrived here by karma and your karma has been your own choice. You always have a clear perception of the consequences of your actions, but you choose them anyway. You should own up to these actions and not disown them. You suffer, not because of what's external -- rebirth in Samsara -- but because of what's internal: it has been your choice to suffer, your decision to stay in Samsara. You can call this crazy -- innate Buddhahood and the idea that you choose to suffer -- but I'd say you're the one who's crazy. Because you are the one who says, "I desire to be free from suffering and help other be free from suffering," while carrying out all the actions which contradict what you are saying. And then, if somebody points it out, you contradict them too. The highest wisdom: Be honest with yourself and don't argue with others when they speak the truth. Don't delude yourself or be caught in others' delusions.

Does this seem clear enough, or am I rambling incoherently? Let me know.

So, what are your thoughts on Buddha-nature? Perhaps some people here could share some neat quotes from the classic texts. :)


As for this one, I would be lost without teachings and teachers.
There may be a Tathagata buried somewhere under all the rubble and fuzzy perceptions within my conch palace/heart, but for this one to say "I am Tathagata" would be a self delusion.
I will take your advice "Don't delude yourself or be caught in others' delusions."
With Metta,
David
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:01 am

swampflower wrote:
Individual wrote:We are already Tathagathas. Whenever you meditate, you have already arrived at Suchness: seeing red as red, hard as hard, cold as cold, etc., and all the things of the world. And if you don't have this confidence in yourself, why and how do anything? If your five senses and mind don't even have a foothold on the world, how could you ever do anything? That's it right there!

We are already liberated. Because you have arrived here by karma and your karma has been your own choice. You always have a clear perception of the consequences of your actions, but you choose them anyway. You should own up to these actions and not disown them. You suffer, not because of what's external -- rebirth in Samsara -- but because of what's internal: it has been your choice to suffer, your decision to stay in Samsara. You can call this crazy -- innate Buddhahood and the idea that you choose to suffer -- but I'd say you're the one who's crazy. Because you are the one who says, "I desire to be free from suffering and help other be free from suffering," while carrying out all the actions which contradict what you are saying. And then, if somebody points it out, you contradict them too. The highest wisdom: Be honest with yourself and don't argue with others when they speak the truth. Don't delude yourself or be caught in others' delusions.

Does this seem clear enough, or am I rambling incoherently? Let me know.

So, what are your thoughts on Buddha-nature? Perhaps some people here could share some neat quotes from the classic texts. :)


As for this one, I would be lost without teachings and teachers.
There may be a Tathagata buried somewhere under all the rubble and fuzzy perceptions within my conch palace/heart, but for this one to say "I am Tathagata" would be a self delusion.
I will take your advice "Don't delude yourself or be caught in others' delusions."
With Metta,
David

Are you mindful when listening to teachers and teachings? Do you actually absorb what you hear?

If no, the teachings serve no purpose, because it is like your teacher is talking to a lifeless statue.

If yes, the teachings are unnecessary because you can apply that same mindfulness to your daily life.

Both\neither, well, that's just nonsense.

Is there an error in this logic? :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:42 am

Individual wrote:If yes, the teachings are unnecessary because you can apply that same mindfulness to your daily life.

Is there an error in this logic? :)


Yes there is the error that the context of being mindful is neglected. And the context is that which is being taught.

Kind regards
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:45 am

TMingyur wrote:
Individual wrote:If yes, the teachings are unnecessary because you can apply that same mindfulness to your daily life.

Is there an error in this logic? :)


Yes there is the error that the context of being mindful is neglected. And the context is that which is being taught.

Kind regards

But that is an error made when the teacher is not present. How does a teacher teach when not physically present?
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby ground » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:51 am

Individual wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Individual wrote:If yes, the teachings are unnecessary because you can apply that same mindfulness to your daily life.

Is there an error in this logic? :)


Yes there is the error that the context of being mindful is neglected. And the context is that which is being taught.

Kind regards

But that is an error made when the teacher is not present.

What is the error?

Individual wrote:How does a teacher teach when not physically present?

He has taught. And thus he has delivered the context.

Kind regards
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby swampflower » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:31 pm

Individual wrote:
swampflower wrote:
Individual wrote:We are already Tathagathas. Whenever you meditate, you have already arrived at Suchness: seeing red as red, hard as hard, cold as cold, etc., and all the things of the world. And if you don't have this confidence in yourself, why and how do anything? If your five senses and mind don't even have a foothold on the world, how could you ever do anything? That's it right there!

We are already liberated. Because you have arrived here by karma and your karma has been your own choice. You always have a clear perception of the consequences of your actions, but you choose them anyway. You should own up to these actions and not disown them. You suffer, not because of what's external -- rebirth in Samsara -- but because of what's internal: it has been your choice to suffer, your decision to stay in Samsara. You can call this crazy -- innate Buddhahood and the idea that you choose to suffer -- but I'd say you're the one who's crazy. Because you are the one who says, "I desire to be free from suffering and help other be free from suffering," while carrying out all the actions which contradict what you are saying. And then, if somebody points it out, you contradict them too. The highest wisdom: Be honest with yourself and don't argue with others when they speak the truth. Don't delude yourself or be caught in others' delusions.

Does this seem clear enough, or am I rambling incoherently? Let me know.

So, what are your thoughts on Buddha-nature? Perhaps some people here could share some neat quotes from the classic texts. :)


As for this one, I would be lost without teachings and teachers.
There may be a Tathagata buried somewhere under all the rubble and fuzzy perceptions within my conch palace/heart, but for this one to say "I am Tathagata" would be a self delusion.
I will take your advice "Don't delude yourself or be caught in others' delusions."
With Metta,
David

Are you mindful when listening to teachers and teachings? Do you actually absorb what you hear?

If no, the teachings serve no purpose, because it is like your teacher is talking to a lifeless statue.

If yes, the teachings are unnecessary because you can apply that same mindfulness to your daily life.

Both\neither, well, that's just nonsense.

Is there an error in this logic? :)


Ha ha, this one is just like a wooden stick. Even if the teacher would strike with a stick, it will just be the sound of clacking that will be heard.
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:13 pm

:twothumbsup:
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby spiritnoname » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:04 am

What if what works?

I really didn't read the thread. Just the beginning.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:10 pm

spiritnoname wrote:What if what works?

I really didn't read the thread. Just the beginning.

I understand that. I'm talking about the beginning too.

It's nonsense.

But what if it works? :)
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby conebeckham » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:50 pm

So, Individual, let me get this straight...being "liberated" or being a Tathagata" is a conscious choice, and nothing more? We just decide that red is red, cold is cold, etc., we recognize that where we are now is the result of what we've done before, and we simply choose not to be In Samsara?

That's it?
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby spiritnoname » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:06 pm

Well Individual, here's the thing, suffering is very real. And while you suffer, you suffer.

:coffee: Does thinking you're a Buddha end suffering?
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby Individual » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:37 pm

conebeckham wrote:So, Individual, let me get this straight...being "liberated" or being a Tathagata" is a conscious choice, and nothing more? We just decide that red is red, cold is cold, etc., we recognize that where we are now is the result of what we've done before, and we simply choose not to be In Samsara?

That's it?

No, because choosing and consciousness are conditioned. Simply spontaneously observe the crazy idea that you are already a Tathagatha, without relying on anything, and that itself is an enlightened observation... Seeing that you don't choose to be a Buddha (because choosing is conditioned, Buddha is not), but rather, you couldn't possibly choose to be anything else. Whatever it is you might choose to be is itself an expression of freedom -- perhaps an illusion -- which only covers the underlying truth. :)

spiritnoname wrote:Well Individual, here's the thing, suffering is very real. And while you suffer, you suffer.

:coffee: Does thinking you're a Buddha end suffering?

To sound like Neo from the Matrix: What is real? :lol:

If you regard the five senses and mind as real, then suffering is nothing more than these sensations with notions of craving & self attributed to them. Without attending to these things, or craving them, or attributing self to them, what real suffering is there actually? Suffering begins in your mind, while the environment is just a context. And if seen clearly, there is no sufferer, only suffering.

"Not thinking you are anything" (the cessation of mental formations fueling birth) is Buddhahood.
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Re: Buddha-nature

Postby spiritnoname » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:20 pm

Individual.
In a dream where things are without substance, without reality, false and fabricated, based on misconception, can we still suffer? Whether or not things have substance, we suffer, and that suffering has causes, causes that are under our control.

Saying that suffering and it's causes are something to disregard because they are based on the fabricated is insanity, total disregard for the reality of things.

:coffee: As even Zen monk say:
"Thwack!"
"Does emptiness feel pain?"

And defining Buddhahood as our original state, defining Nirvana as our original state, it's not helpful, it really belongs in the class of wrong views pertaining to the origination of being and whether you say yes we are inherently Buddhas or no we are inherently deluded, both are wrong views worthy of condemnation on the basis that they are not skillful and do not benefit the practice.


In tantra, this is something else, I don't know how many of you are tantrikas, but such views need to be in context of the training. For everyone else, this is like thinking of all beings as your mother, it has it's place in context of the training as developing qualities, but if you start sending me mother's day cards I will tell you off for being foolish, if you filling out paperwork and you have to attach a million pages or write something like " all beings are my mother", that's unskillful also and you've taken the view out of context and turned it into nonsense.

The views that are taught are like a razor, you have to be skillful in using them appropriately, to the right aim, in the context of the training.
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