Instantaneous awakening.

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Jesse
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby Jesse » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:42 pm

the story ends and theres no problem, and never was.
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein

Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:13 am

Gwenn Dana wrote:Ugh. What was that?!
Yet another failed attempt by a self-proclaimed enlightened teacher to save us from ourselves?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

muni
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby muni » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:38 am

Sherab Dorje wrote: Yet another failed attempt by a self-proclaimed enlightened teacher to save us from ourselves?


Where?

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby White Lotus » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:26 pm

theres no problem, and never was.


where is the enlightened teacher? i cant find him. but as soon as i say that i chop your head off and scorch your toes. i deceive you with apparently enlightened words and say to you there is a problem to be solved. a riddle to be understood. some sort of enlightened bliss. no, sorry. not today. lets forget whether we can find him or not. talk of being unborn just misleads people.

i respect all of you as seekers of the Dharma and hope my poetry is not too bad! (to those with taste).

does anyone else have a short sentence to express instantaneous awakening, dont be afraid, please dont hide. unless you give your understanding people will not have the chance to see themselves just as they are right now in this eternal moment.

i am very sorry that it will be hard for me to provide further posts after today, for a while. its good to see old names are still posting here. the blessings of all goodness and enlightenment upon you all. as they've always been.

rgds, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

baseless
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby baseless » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:41 pm

Yes it is time to just live. After hearing and understanding the gift of dharma, what more do you need to be here (or indeed hear).

Astus
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby Astus » Thu May 01, 2014 1:57 pm

White Lotus wrote:it just cant be done. this points to the necessity of having travelled some way along the path in order to appreciate such expressions. there needs to be prior experience in order to appreciate the term: "Instantaneous Awakening". can anyone here put it into simple understandable language. I doubt it!


Could we then say that the myth of instantaneous awakening is busted?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)

Gwenn Dana
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby Gwenn Dana » Thu May 01, 2014 7:29 pm

Humm. How should awakening be any other than instantaneous, where the sutras say everything is constantly changing, and "before" and "after", as well as the spirit of the past, present and future cannot be found?

Sure, then that "instantaneous" is still a convention. You can now of course argue that "no dharma is also a dharma", which points to a point beyond convention, does not escape convention. Where instantaneous is just another attempt to point beyond convention. Which again is not possible, since language is convention.

To me those attempts point both to the same, and are in the same way limited by the possibilities of language.

Best wishes
Gwenn

hop.pala
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Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby hop.pala » Mon May 05, 2014 8:11 am

To me those attempts point both to the same, and are in the same way limited by the possibilities of language.


If you remove a nail with crowbar.The nail go out,also wont have the crowbar in the beam,but it is really very difficult.

muni
Posts: 3043
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:59 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby muni » Mon May 05, 2014 8:42 am

I guess, awakening going slowly is dreaming but that is good, slowly mind can be purified by dreamlike tools. It seems knowing to be a dreamer, dreaming its dream is the highest knowing a dreamer can have. Its on the edge of awakening. I am not sure how long one remains balancing there.

:zzz:

muni
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:59 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby muni » Mon May 05, 2014 9:39 am

the story ends and theres no problem, and never was.



Pulling the habitual memory stick out of mind, oh well, to see all is always been okay without, what a peace that must be.

theanarchist
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby theanarchist » Mon May 05, 2014 1:04 pm

White Lotus wrote:This topic was central to the Buddhist school of Hui Neng, the sixth Chinese patriarch.
When Hui Neng transmitted the dharma transmission and recognition of a students enlightenment he would give the following gatha (poem)
The mind ground holds the seeds
which sprout when falls the all pervading rain,
the wisdom flower of instantaneous awakening
cannot fail to bear the bodhi fruit

instantaneous awakening is however still a dharma, but is the gateway to go beyond enlightenment. it has no requirements or conditions. it is just instant. right here, right now. just as you are.

going beyond instantaneous awakening one comes to no dharma whatsoever, not even no dharma is to be attached to. this simplest of all realisations is also the hardest to accept. this is since the ego is always searching for something bigger and better, faster and cooler. the Buddha Siddharta Shakyamuni also had a transmission Gatha that he handed to Mahakasyapa. it goes as follows:
The Dharmas fundamental dharma is no dharma,
the dharma of no dharma is dharma too,
now the dharma of no dharma is transmitted,
has there ever been a dharma?


no teaching transmitted whatsoever by Siddharta, not even instanteneous enlightenment (which is still a teaching). since this is so the buddha fundamentally has no teaching and whosoever says he has slanders the buddha (Vajracchedica/diamond sutra). one has never been in bondage. there is no enlightenment to be realised. this is fundamental realisation. though there may be many stages and realisations, fundamentally not a thing is taught or realised. its mysterious.

some have said on these threads that in order to have an instanteneous awakening first one must pass through many stages. i believe that is not so. the mind is buddha, this ordinary mind right now as you have it. nothing special.

when we know this it is time to just live.

i hope you are all well, hope this is helpful.

rgds, Tom.




That sounds like those people who misunderstand dzogchen and think FINE, I don't have to practice anything at all as I don't have to attain anything anyway.

LOL.

:rolling:

greentara
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby greentara » Wed May 07, 2014 10:10 pm

Jesse, "The story ends and theres no problem, and never was" Yes that pretty much covers it!

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby White Lotus » Sun May 25, 2014 3:06 pm

is instanteneous awakening busted? its up to you. a wise teacher has said: Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?

in cha do, the japanese tea ceremony there is the emphasis on perfectly imperfect (wabi sabi). this is the enlightenment of the tea ceremony, perfection within the ordinary things of life, right here right now... thats the buddha. you.

to see that all has always been ok without. fine in its imperfection, its ok for life to be difficult at times. thats ok.

it could be said that the mind is non abiding, it cannot remain in any one state and so ''instateneous awakening'' passes. one cant stay in this awakening. in that sense it is busted, but only after it has done its work, which is probably no work.

in the Lankevatara sutra Buddha is quoted to say in the Sagathakam:''i am not enlightened and i never have been''. i take this to mean that enlightenment can be seen as a fabrication. it never arrived and was never lost from the very beginning. all beings have always been completely liberated.

even the words ''enlightenment'' and ''delusion'' are dualistic discriminations. generalisations that dont reach the reality of things. even the word ''so'' is a speculative tool to removed discrimination. its still a word and therefore a limitation and simplification or generalisation.

so... what do we do?

just type! does it have to mean anything? orange juice is good in the morning.

enough pontification from me! profound apologies for even starting this thread. its just more mud on all you buddhas.

best wishes, Tom.

busted? probably. but do we need tempering or refinement? for practical reasons yes, ultimately no. if no, is it busted? probably not.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

smcj
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 5:13 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby smcj » Sun May 25, 2014 3:19 pm

greentara wrote:Jesse, "The story ends and theres no problem, and never was" Yes that pretty much covers it!

Or alternatively, "All's well that ends well".

William Shakespeare.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN

Vajraprajnakhadga
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Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby Vajraprajnakhadga » Tue May 27, 2014 3:21 am

theanarchist wrote:Instantaneous awakening is a big topic in dzogchen. But it requires transmission.


No it doesn't.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby White Lotus » Thu May 29, 2014 12:07 pm

when the anarchist wrote that instantaneous awakening requires transmission was he aware that chinese buddhist Ch'an influnences may have been at work in Dzogchen during its formation.one of the two versions of the Lankavatara sutra in the thibetan cannon is a translation from the chinese, the other is from sanscrit. the lankavatara sutra is the only thibetan sutra in the thibetan taisho to have two sources, besides one other work. if instantenous awakening required transmission it would not be pure and simple 'instantaneous'.

back to what Astus may have been alluding to: that some prior knowledge of buddhism may be necessary for one to be 'instanteneously' awakened. this kind of awakening requiring some previous knowledge and therefore not instantaneous. the sixth patriarch of zen, Hui Neng is supposed to have experienced spontaneous awakening on hearing a verse of the Vajracchedica sutra (Diamond cutter sutra) recited by a monk without prior experience or knowledge.

it could be said that all discrimination is unhelpful: that as soon as we make an assertion of any kind or any kind of denial we have fallen into generalising language. it is therefore best to avoid arguments and assertions, to avoid expressing concepts of any kind. the words 'instantaneous awakening' are a simplification and a generalisation. so too is the word enlightenment. i must correct my previous quotation from the Sagathakam. it should read:

(Sagathakam v. 22, Lankavatara sutra: "The ignorant discriminate and think: "I am the enlightened one in the world"; but I am not enlightened nor do i enlighten others."

im sorry for my previous misquotation, but i think it did give the gist of things.

if i make an assertion such as: enlightenement can be spontaneous or instantaneous i have fallen into discrimination and dualistic thinking. to avoid all assertions and apply the great function at this moment i will say of instantaneous awakening:
it shouldnt be true, but perhaps it is. making no assertion. the moon is shining on this bright day.

one simply cannot apply logic and reason to any problem beyond a certain point. one accesses stream of consciousness and expresses the great function, either in word or deed. the great body cannot be explained. it is beyond all speculation and reason. only a stream of consciousness approach is pure. then again, if one liberates his understanding he is free to say anything, no matter how odd or unreasonable it may sound or how speculative. all this is the great function of the great body.

a donkey munches on his carrot.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

hop.pala
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby hop.pala » Thu May 29, 2014 8:01 pm

White lotus


Yes,There is instant awakenink,because the" light" ,it is the lightining in the sky,but not without reason,it is just so.Such as instant coffe.When you take in your hand,a lot of things happened until it is in your hands and so instant.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby White Lotus » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:20 am

hop pala, thats a wonderful analogy... instant coffee! until its had water added and is put in a cup it is not ready... it is however still instant... without difficulty. everyone has the mind of a buddha, but not everyone has heard this, nor is everyone convinced of it. even though it is so simple. unless you know that instant coffee is easy to make and tastes nice you will go for other kinds of coffee. (the gradual approaches).

when you know that you have always had awakening you will realise that its not necessary to see or experience anything special. you are a buddha just as you are.

Astus, i dont think its possible to get away from the fact that certain factors are needed before one experiences 'instanteneous' awakening. these factors dont need to be anything difficult or practiced. simple knowledge may lead to instanteneous awakening. this is easy enlightenment as opposed to difficult dust wiping enlightenment. it may be more accurate to call instantaneous enlightenment ''effortless enlightenment''. but then again, unless there has been some effort such enlightenment would probably not be appreciated. it would be too easy.

it is instantaneous in that it is easy: it isnt instanteneous in that you may need prior experience (but not always).

Hui Neng and Matsu of the Southern School came under the critical eye of Tsung Mi for their attitude towards 'instanteneous/easy' enlightenment, but i dont think Tsung Mi was able to fully appreciate the Southern school, even though he did say that it was able to reveal to a person the fundamental Mind ground. zen goes beyond Mind and consciousness. beyond all rational logic. it is no wonder that Tsung Mi was unable to pin down any fundamental zen doctrine in the Southern School. there is none. it even goes beyond buddha nature and whatever i say misses the point because words are mere simplifications and unhelpful discrimination.
best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

oushi
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:18 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby oushi » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:02 pm

You speak wisely, your pointing looks correct. Can you tell me what is the essential meaning of your message in one, or two sentences?
Say what you think about me here.

hop.pala
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Instantaneous awakening.

Postby hop.pala » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:12 am

when you know that you have always had awakening you will realise that its not necessary to see or experience anything special. you are a buddha just as you are.


Ok all right.Later write something about the kleshas.

you are buddha

You are?


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