Three Turnings.

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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby kirtu » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:38 am

Malcolm wrote:It is not a Mahāyāna POV, which are only Yogacara or Madhyamaka.


It's not a Mahayana philosophical view of reality but that has nothing to do with one's bodhicitta. One can have a realist view and still be a bodhisattva not on the bhumis and thus nonetheless following the Mahayana path.

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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby JamyangTashi » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:45 am

kirtu wrote:
jeeprs wrote:So the phenomenal world exists, but everything in it is transient, unsatisfying and empty (sunya).


An example of exactly this is Shakyamuni Buddha who definitely held this view over many lifetimes. This view is the Vaibhashika or Sautrantika view and is philosophically a Sravakayana view.


How is this a Sravakayana view?

SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta wrote:Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:02 am

The 'three marks' - impermanence (anicca); suffering or unsatisfactoriness (dukkha); non-self (Anatta) - are accepted by all Buddhist schools, are they not?
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:18 am

jeeprs wrote:The 'three marks' - impermanence (anicca); suffering or unsatisfactoriness (dukkha); non-self (Anatta) - are accepted by all Buddhist schools, are they not?


Yes. However that does not suggest a truly existent world or anything in that vein. The true meaning of impermanence is encountered in the emptiness or non-arising of phenomena. The idea of impermanent objects which are established in time and decay is a provisional coarse impermanence.
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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby kirtu » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:29 am

JamyangTashi wrote:
kirtu wrote:
jeeprs wrote:So the phenomenal world exists, but everything in it is transient, unsatisfying and empty (sunya).


An example of exactly this is Shakyamuni Buddha who definitely held this view over many lifetimes. This view is the Vaibhashika or Sautrantika view and is philosophically a Sravakayana view.


How is this a Sravakayana view?


The assertion that the world exists is the realist position of the Vaibhashika and Sautrantika POV. Your quote from the Kaccayanagotta Sutta indicates that things are not necessarily so (so the Sravakayana does not necessarily take a realist position wrt the substantial existence of the cosmos). However the Theravadin School is also not just a Sravakayana school.

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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby Astus » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:29 am

kirtu wrote:The bodhisattva is defined by his/her commitment to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all beings and their commitment to eventually bring all beings to enlightenment. Their view of reality is not a defining factor until their are further along the path - they can't become an Arya without refining their view to at least the Cittamatra view.


If the view does not matter then worldly merit brings about buddhahood. Without the right view there is no practice of the paramitas, and without the paramitas there is no path to buddhahood. The vow to liberate all beings means unlimited compassion, and it cannot be boundless as long as one grasps at the idea of truly existing beings and things.

If we have to have the correct refined view of wisdom from the start then we will never get to Buddhahood.


From the start all we have is ignorance. Then we learn, reflect and realise. Isn't that the path?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby Malcolm » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:27 pm

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is not a Mahāyāna POV, which are only Yogacara or Madhyamaka.


It's not a Mahayana philosophical view of reality but that has nothing to do with one's bodhicitta. One can have a realist view and still be a bodhisattva not on the bhumis and thus nonetheless following the Mahayana path.

Kirt



I was talking about view, not motivation.
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Re: Three Turnings.

Postby Malcolm » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:29 pm

kirtu wrote:However the Theravadin School is also not just a Sravakayana school.

Kirt



Of course it is.
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http://www.bhaisajya.net
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http://www.sakyapa.net
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