Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 am

futerko wrote:
thunderbumble wrote:I think the Son Of Buddha means by, "real" exists as a heavenly entity in a place called, Suhkavati.

Once you've been here a while you will realise that Son of Buddha is a substance ontologist who rejects everything empty in favor of a "True Self." i.e. not a Buddhist. :smile:


I believe in that which is unconditioned and beyond space and time .....I think its called a nomenom
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby thunderbumble » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:30 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:Hey ThunderBumble your post had to many embeds(im on my phone so its hard to remove all you text and do quotes.ect)

But this is in resonse to your last question.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html
"Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'

As you can see from the quote both me and the Buddha think that whatever is not self leads to suffering,and whatever is self does not lead to suffering.....

So I hope that answers all your questions concering my views on the 5 aggregates.


I understand the Buddha here is referring to identifying with something or having an aversion to it.
My form is, I like I've cream. My form is, I hate eating liver.
I crave ice cream and am always wanting more. I'm forced to eat liver and am miserable.

I'm ice cream.
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:28 pm

thunderbumble wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:Hey ThunderBumble your post had to many embeds(im on my phone so its hard to remove all you text and do quotes.ect)

But this is in resonse to your last question.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html
"Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'

As you can see from the quote both me and the Buddha think that whatever is not self leads to suffering,and whatever is self does not lead to suffering.....

So I hope that answers all your questions concering my views on the 5 aggregates.


I understand the Buddha here is referring to identifying with something or having an aversion to it.
My form is, I like I've cream. My form is, I hate eating liver.
I crave ice cream and am always wanting more. I'm forced to eat liver and am miserable.

I'm ice cream.


What the Buddha is saying is the 5 aggregates are deviod of a self(anatta) and since they are devoid of a Self they lead to suffering

If the 5 aggregates were Self they would not lead to suffering(since the self does not lead to suffering.

The Buddha is simply teaching that whatever is devoid of a Self is impermenant subject to change,decays and is suffering,hence why not self is one of the 3 characterists of Samsara.
(Majjhima Nikaya sutta 64 explains what catagory not self belongs into)

But this question digresses from the original topic.......

So can I ask, do you believe when Pure Landers die they will be reborn into Pure Land to practice with Amitabha Buddha?

Do you even believe in literal rebirth?
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby futerko » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:55 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:Real as in trully existing to be experienced not just some concept or allegory
And again your ignoring the fact the author doesnt cover the basic purpose for the Pure Land.

Son of Buddha wrote:I believe in that which is unconditioned and beyond space and time .....I think its called a nomenom

The whole point of the article is about effective practice, not about speculation concerning what is really existing.

While you continue to cling to your beliefs about what is or isn't beyond your experience, you will continue to repeat this mistake.

If you are in direct contact with Buddha Amitabha and require no language to communicate with him directly, then fair enough. Even if he appeared directly in front of you, if you were to require language to communicate, then it would still be on the level of the symbolic. So unless you are claiming to have developed clairvoyance and be in direct communication with such an entity, which could at the same time be confirmed as a valid ultimate cognition, then the article is correct.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby futerko » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:04 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:
futerko wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:As far as Non duality/Middle way goes your "version" of the middle way doesnt even resemble the Buddhas teachings on the actual middle way subject.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_27.html


    Since all schools of Buddhism reject the idea of the Atman, none can accept the non-dualism of Vedanta. From the perspective of the Theravada tradition, any quest for the discovery of selfhood, whether as a permanent individual self or as an absolute universal self, would have to be dismissed as a delusion, a metaphysical blunder born from a failure to properly comprehend the nature of concrete experience.

So the issue is very clear. The basis of "reality" as either substance or self is rejected by all schools of Buddhism.


I posted the thread to show you what the pali canons views on non Duality are and to show you that their non duality views are entirely in line with Third Turning teachings on the Subject i.e. BOTH the Pali canon and Buddha Nature Sutras are completely in agreement state that :
...

Firstly, the argument in the article you posted has more holes in it than a piece of Swiss cheese.

Secondly, that discussion is for another thread, however as you have already discussed this with many of the posters here in various threads over the past year, it would seem to be established that you insist on maintaining a contrary position and we would simply be covering the same old ground again.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby thunderbumble » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:40 am

Son of Buddha wrote:
thunderbumble wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:Hey ThunderBumble your post had to many embeds(im on my phone so its hard to remove all you text and do quotes.ect)

But this is in resonse to your last question.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html
"Form, O monks, is not-self; if form were self, then form would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since form is not-self, therefore form leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus.'

As you can see from the quote both me and the Buddha think that whatever is not self leads to suffering,and whatever is self does not lead to suffering.....

So I hope that answers all your questions concering my views on the 5 aggregates.


I understand the Buddha here is referring to identifying with something or having an aversion to it.
My form is, I like I've cream. My form is, I hate eating liver.
I crave ice cream and am always wanting more. I'm forced to eat liver and am miserable.

I'm ice cream.


What the Buddha is saying is the 5 aggregates are deviod of a self(anatta) and since they are devoid of a Self they lead to suffering

If the 5 aggregates were Self they would not lead to suffering(since the self does not lead to suffering.

The Buddha is simply teaching that whatever is devoid of a Self is impermenant subject to change,decays and is suffering,hence why not self is one of the 3 characterists of Samsara.
(Majjhima Nikaya sutta 64 explains what catagory not self belongs into)

But this question digresses from the original topic.......

So can I ask, do you believe when Pure Landers die they will be reborn into Pure Land to practice with Amitabha Buddha?

Do you even believe in literal rebirth?

I have been going to the Pure Land for the last 20 years dive I began to say the Nembutsu.
I'll continue to go until the day I die. Then I will have gone to the Pure Land like all those that go, been going, gone.
Don't know about "rebirth" really. Honestly, I don't believe what I don't know or can not recall first hand. It's hearsay. However, if you can recall past lives, I believe that you believe it. But you cannot recall a future life.
Buddhism is about this life.

Please refer to, Shinran quote below
And the purpose of life.
(I say the Nembutsu not to go to there Pureland but because I am a house holder that works too much. I say the Nembutsu because I love Amida Buddha and am grateful and devoted to the Amida Buddha)



" Pure Land

Absolute Enlightenment is attained in the Pure Land after death when all finite, limited qualities of the physical being are extinct. While the human weaknesses of greed, anger and ignorance are still functioning the perfection of personality is an impossibility.

Birth in the Pure Land means becoming a Buddha and achieving perfect Oneness with Amida Buddha. We are thus identified totally with Amida’s Wisdom and Compassion. This Oneness is not a static end in itself, for true Wisdom-Compassion is an active, moving spiritual force. So long as there is suffering and ignorance in the Universe the power of compassion will never cease its work of mercy. Thus we, who become one with Amida Buddha in the Pure Land, will return repeatedly to this shore of suffering for the salvation of all beings. Shinran Shonin said,

“Though I, my life having run its course,
Return to the Pure Land of Eternal Rest,
Come back shall I to earth again and again
Just as the waves of Wakano-Ura-Bay.
When alone you rejoice in the Sacred Teachings
Believe that there are two,
and when there are two to rejoice
Believe there are three -
That other shall be Shinran.”

The Pure Land ideal is the culmination of the teaching of Compassion and Wisdom.

The Purpose of Life

While the ultimate objective of life in Jodo Shinshu lies in the achievement of Buddhahood, life’s immediate purpose is realized in the awakening of faith. In this religious experience we know that we now live in Amida’s Light. This is the spiritual state Shinran Shonin called the “ranks of the truly assured.” The recitation of the Nembutsu – Namo Amida Butsu – flows naturally and clearly as waters from a mountain spring.

The life of faith has achieved a high level of internal organization. It will have developed the wisdom and insight to understand the changing circumstances of life. Even under adverse conditions, a man of faith will be strong because his inner conviction is strong. He has gained a new vision and dimension in his life. Because his spiritual roots reach down into the Compassion of Amida Buddha, his “taste” of life is inexpressibly sensitive. His religious acts are performed out of gratitude to Amida Buddha. He asks nothing of Amida Buddha but dedicates his whole being to him"
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby thunderbumble » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:06 am

So the issue is very clear. The basis of "reality" as either substance or self is rejected by all schools of Buddhism.[/quote]

I posted the thread to show you what the pali canons views on non Duality are and to show you that their non duality views are entirely in line with Third Turning teachings on the Subject i.e. BOTH the Pali canon and Buddha Nature Sutras are completely in agreement state that :
...
[/quote]
Firstly, the argument in the article you posted has more holes in it than a piece of Swiss cheese.

Secondly, that discussion is for another thread, however as you have already discussed this with many of the posters here in various threads over the past year, it would seem to be established that you insist on maintaining a contrary position and we would simply be covering the same old ground again.[/quote]

How does this support "true self"? Quite the opposite.

Dhamma and Non-duality
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
© 1998
"From the perspective of the Theravada tradition, any quest for the discovery of selfhood, whether as a permanent individual self or as an absolute universal self, would have to be dismissed as a delusion, a metaphysical blunder born from a failure to properly comprehend the nature of concrete experience. According to the Pali Suttas, the individual being is merely a complex unity of the five aggregates, which are all stamped with the three marks of impermanence, suffering, and selflessness. Any postulation of selfhood in regard to this compound of transient, conditioned phenomena is an instance of "personality view" (sakkayaditthi), the most basic fetter that binds beings to the round of rebirths. The attainment of liberation, for Buddhism, does not come to pass by the realization of a true self or absolute "I," but through the dissolution of even the subtlest sense of selfhood in relation to the five aggregates, "the abolition of all I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendencies to conceit."

Going to the Pali Suttas to support the idea of a soul is hilarious.
I'm done with this thread.
Namu Amida Butsu
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:10 am

[Futerko
The whole point of the article is about effective practice, not about speculation is really existing.


The point of the article is not about practice instructions,its about what author thinks is doctrinally true of fake Shinshu Buddhist.

And yet again he tries to state what is "True" Shinshu Buddhism WITHOUT even covering the basics of rebirth into the Pure Land.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:36 am

Thunderbumble
I have been going to the Pure Land for the last 20 years dive I began to say the Nembutsu. I'll continue to go until the day I die. Then I will have gone to the Pure Land like all those that go, been going, gone. Don't know about "rebirth" really. Honestly, I don't believe what I don't know or can not recall first hand. It's hearsay. However, if you can recall past lives, I believe that you believe it. But you cannot recall a future life. Buddhism is about this life.


How are you going to be reborn into the Pure Land if you dont believe in rebirth?

It seems you have redefined the meaning of the term Pure Land.
Are you apart of that Shinshu sect that has redefined Pure Land as Enlightenment,and you think that all you have to do to become Enlightened is to have faith then after you die you are automatically Enlightened?

So I take it you dont accept that the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into to practice under the Buddha and attain Enlightenment.....and Im assuming you will not accept this passage that says the Pure Land is a literal place of rebirth to practice in
"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good. If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years. The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil. If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years. The reason is that in the Buddha-land of other quarters many practice good and very few commit evil. They are lands where everything is naturally provided as a result of one's merit and virtue, and so no evil is done. But in this world much evil is committed, and few are provided for naturally;


the Pure Land Sutra teachings on rebirth
They think only of doing evil their mouths continuously speak malice; and with their bodies, they are forever committing evil. In their whole lives they have not done even one good deed. "Furthermore, they do not believe in the ancient sages, nor the Buddhist teachings, nor the path of practice leading to emancipation. Neither do they believe that after death one is reborn into another state of existence, that good deeds bring about good rewards, or that evil acts bring about evil consequences. They plot to murder an arhat to cause disruption in the Sangha, and even think of killing their parents, brothers, sisters or other relatives. For this reason, even their kinsmen, from the closest to the sixth blood-relative, hate them so much as to wish them dead.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby muni » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:31 pm

Reading here a glymps of the conversation and not able to multi quoting...sorry.

Thunderbumble : " Don't know about "rebirth" really. Honestly, I don't believe what I don't know or can not recall first hand".

I think merely not 'knowing' rebirth in a way it cannot be 'proved', is not exactly the same as rejecting. While there is still the trust, the faith without doubt our nature is like it is.
A truth what need to be proved cannot be the final meaning behind all teachings of the buddha for me. Even the conceptual mind needs something to prove or it is lost, and so I must conclude that that what can be proved is temporary phenomena, by that conceptual mind.

Buddha was silent.
I think Mind as being nondual nature, will not reject rebirth, even prove no anything.
And many of those remembering life before and those having had ND experiences as well will not feel the need for exhausting conversations about believing in ‘rebirth’, often colored by pro-contra limitations, opinions.

That's my opinion. Have a nice day! :namaste:
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby futerko » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:16 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:So I take it you dont accept that the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into to practice under the Buddha and attain Enlightenment.....and Im assuming you will not accept this passage that says the Pure Land is a literal place of rebirth to practice in
"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good. If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years. The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil. If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years. The reason is that in the Buddha-land of other quarters many practice good and very few commit evil. They are lands where everything is naturally provided as a result of one's merit and virtue, and so no evil is done. But in this world much evil is committed, and few are provided for naturally;

See what it says in this quote is exactly the same as echoed throughout this whole thread; "In this world, you should..." "If you strictly observe..." "If in this world you do..."

For you, it seems this passage, "...says the Pure Land is a literal place..." but for others, they are focused on what it says concerning how to practice right here and now.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby thunderbumble » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:12 pm

futerko wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:So I take it you dont accept that the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into to practice under the Buddha and attain Enlightenment.....and Im assuming you will not accept this passage that says the Pure Land is a literal place of rebirth to practice in
"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good. If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years. The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil. If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years. The reason is that in the Buddha-land of other quarters many practice good and very few commit evil. They are lands where everything is naturally provided as a result of one's merit and virtue, and so no evil is done. But in this world much evil is committed, and few are provided for naturally;

See what it says in this quote is exactly the same as echoed throughout this whole thread; "In this world, you should..." "If you strictly observe..." "If in this world you do..."

For you, it seems this passage, "...says the Pure Land is a literal place..." but for others, they are focused on what it says concerning how to practice right here and now.

It's also hugely out of context with Shin Buddhism.
And the second part is referring to non believers.
SON of buddha seems to want to turn pureland in to a Sutra thumping focus on the after life religion
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby zamotcr » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:32 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:
"...however, at the same time that a symbol points toward something, it also exists in a profound relationship with the thing itself. This is an important point, I believe." (p. 32)


the literal title of that 1st chapter is Amida Buddha real or a symbol,
Nowhere did the author say Amida Buddha is BOTH real and a symbol.
As a matter of FACT you didnt provide a single quote from the author that states that living beings upon death will be reborn into the Pureland of peace and Bliss to study under the "real" Amida Buddha.

In fact your quote never even said Amida Buddha is a real.


My understanding on this is that what we know about Amitabha and his Pure Land are just symbols and images. We are talking about a Buddha in his Enjoyment Body, every picture we try to imagine about it is just a symbol. A symbol does not represent the full glory of Amitabha and his Pure Land. Every sentient being will see Buddha's according to their own limitation and experiences, at the end, is our own mind that interprets the perceptions.

Amitabha Buddha ans his Pure Land are real, they do exist, but what we know about them are just symbols, metaphors with greater meaning. If isn't by this expedient way, how may we know anything about Pure Land? We need this pictures to get a little understanding.

So, the symbol we know point to something, the real Amitabha Buddha.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:18 am

futerko wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:So I take it you dont accept that the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into to practice under the Buddha and attain Enlightenment.....and Im assuming you will not accept this passage that says the Pure Land is a literal place of rebirth to practice in
"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good.

If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years.

The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil.

If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years.

The reason is that in the Buddha-land of other quarters many practice good and very few commit evil. They are lands where everything is naturally provided as a result of one's merit and virtue, and so no evil is done.

But in this world much evil is committed, and few are provided for naturally;

See what it says in this quote is exactly the same as echoed throughout this whole thread; "In this world, you should..." "If you strictly observe..." "If in this world you do..."

For you, it seems this passage, "...says the Pure Land is a literal place..." but for others, they are focused on what it says concerning how to practice right here and now.


I never said you couldn't practice in this world did I? so you have no point and no the whole thread was not about how to practice in this world it was about redefining Amitabha Buddha to be only a symbol and not an existing Buddha who you can go to the Pure land and practice under.

you neglect this article is used by a group who does not think the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into and has instead redefined the term "Pureland" to mean "Enlightenment"

then they redefine the 18th Vow and say instead of living beings having faith in Amitabha Buddha and calling his name even 10 times will be reborn into his (literal)Pure land upon death.

Since they have redefined Pure land to mean Enlightenment they have redefined the 18th vow as to say instead that: those living beings who have faith in Amitabha Buddha and call his name even 10 times they will upon death become Enlightened.

hence their "actual Practice" is to think that you will attain Enlightenment just by having faith saying the Buddhas name 10 times and DYING,and since they do not think that you can achieve Enlightenment in this life by having "faith" and "saying the name 10 times" there actual true prerequisite for attaining Enlightenment is DEATH.

now as far as the Passage is concerned,its clearly talking about literal rebirth into the Pure land,how can you practice in a place for a thousand years if the place doesn't even exist?
the passages is telling you that practice in the earth derives more merit because of the horrible conditions you are living in and how easy it is to do evil in this world and how much more difficult it is to live a pure life there for you derive more merit.......whereas if you live in the Pure land there is no obsticales to your practice and no evil therefore merit is harder to gain.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby futerko » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:47 am

Son of Buddha wrote:you neglect this article is used by a group who does not think the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into and has instead redefined the term "Pureland" to mean "Enlightenment"


Yes, of course, I was merely writing about the article itself. I have no interest in how other groups might distort the meaning.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:08 am

Son of Buddha wrote:So I take it you dont accept that the Pure Land is a literal place you can be reborn into to practice under the Buddha and attain Enlightenment.....and Im assuming you will not accept this passage that says the Pure Land is a literal place of rebirth to practice in?
"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good. If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years. The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil. If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years. The reason is that in the Buddha-land of other quarters many practice good and very few commit evil. They are lands where everything is naturally provided as a result of one's merit and virtue, and so no evil is done. But in this world much evil is committed, and few are provided for naturally;


"thunderbumble"
It's also hugely out of context with Shin Buddhism.
And the second part is referring to non believers.
SON of buddha seems to want to turn pureland in to a Sutra thumping focus on the after life religion

http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/larger.h ... e%20Buddha
That passage is from the Larger Sutra (infinite life sutra)and is one of the 3 pureland sutras and the FOUNDATION for Jodo ShinShu and Shinrans teachings,so for you to say this sutra is "out of context with Shin Buddhism" is to ignore the very Sutra that your School is derived from.

the second quote is not a reference to non-believers it is a reference to humans beings on this world in general
(quote from the 5 evils chapter refering to living beings in Samsara)"Furthermore, they do not believe in the ancient sages, nor the Buddhist teachings, nor the path of practice leading to emancipation. Neither do they believe that after death one is reborn into another state of existence, that good deeds bring about good rewards, or that evil acts bring about evil consequences.
(quote from the next chapter where Bodhisattva maitreya acknowledges people of this world to be exactly like that)
"The Bodhisattva Maitreya, with his palms together, said, "O Buddha, how sincere and earnest your admonition is! People of the world are just as you have described. O Tathagata, you take pity on and care for us without discrimination and seek to deliver us all from suffering. Having accepted the Buddha's repeated exhortations, I will be careful not to disobey them."

so its not about non believers its about how humanity is in this world.

Thunderbumble
SON of buddha seems to want to turn pureland in to a Sutra thumping focus on the after life religion
[/quote]

Why is this inconceivable? Amida, the Enlightened One, is inconceivable. The Pure Land of Peace and Bliss is firmly upheld (juji) by the merit-power of Amida, the Enlightened One, and so how can we conceive of this?
http://www12.canvas.ne.jp/horai/kgss-e.htm
(quote from Shinrans Kyogyoshinsho writings)
'Ju' means not to change or perish; 'ji' means to keep something from dispersing or being lost. It is like applying antidotal treatment to seeds. The seeds thus processed will not be destroyed by water or fire. When favorable conditions arise, the seeds will sprout. How is this possible? It is due to the power of the antidotal treatment. Once a man is born in the Pure Land of Peace and Bliss, if he afterwards desires to be reborn in the three worlds to teach and guide sentient beings, he is able to terminate his life in the Pure Land and be reborn therein according to his wishes. Although he is reborn in the 'water' and 'fire' of various states of the three worlds, the seed of supreme Bodhi is never subject to decay. How is this possible? It is due to the power of Amida, the Enlightened One, which firmly supports and maintains [the Pure Land and the beings born there].

(Shinrans further acknowledgment of the teachings that beings can leave the Pure Land and be reborn into lower realms to teach beings...also SAME CHAPTER as above verse)
The Aspect of Returning
Presentation of the Aspect of Returning
14 Second is the aspect of Returning of the Merit-transference. This is the benefit we receive for the activity in the stage of benefiting and teaching others. It originates from the Vow of unfailing attainment of the rank next to Buddha. It is also called 'the Vow of attainment of Buddhahood after one life-time.' It can also be called 'the Vow of the Merit-transference for our return to this world.' Since this Vow appears in the Commentary on Vasubandhu's Discourse on the Pure Land, I will not quote it here. Refer to the Commentary.

the above Shinrans writings is commentary on these/THIS teaching from the Larger Sutra

VOW(22) If, when I attain Buddhahood, bodhisattvas in the Buddha-lands of other quarters who visit my land should not ultimately and unfailingly reach the Stage of Becoming a Buddha after One More Life, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment. Excepted are those who wish to teach and guide sentient beings in accordance with their original vows. For they wear the armour of great vows, accumulate merits, deliver all beings from birth-and-death, visit Buddha-lands to perform the bodhisattva practices, make offerings to Buddhas, Tathagatas, throughout the ten quarters, enlighten uncountable sentient beings as numerous as the sands of the River Ganges, and establish them in the highest, perfect Enlightenment. Such bodhisattvas transcend the course of practice of the ordinary bodhisattvas, manifest the practices of all the bodhisattva stages, and cultivate the virtues of Samantabhadra.

VOW(23) If, when I attain Buddhahood, bodhisattvas in my land, in order to make offerings to Buddhas through my transcendent power, should not be able to reach immeasurable and innumerable kotis of nayutas of Buddha-lands in as short a time as it takes to eat a meal, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment.

VOW(36) If, when I attain Buddhahood, bodhisattvas in the immeasurable and inconceivable Buddha-lands of the ten quarters, who have heard my Name, should not, after the end of their lives, always perform sacred practices until they reach Buddhahood, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment.

VOW(38) If, when I attain Buddhahood, humans and devas in my land should not obtain clothing, as soon as such a desire arises in their minds, and if the fine robes as prescribed and praised by the Buddhas should not be spontaneously provided for them to wear, and if these clothes should need sewing, bleaching, dyeing or washing, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment.

yes Thunderbumble obviously I'M the one who's turning the Pure Land into an After Life Religion.........
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby dude » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:13 am

Well done, Son of Buddha.
A well reasoned reply with scriptural references. Maybe there's hope for this board yet.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby thunderbumble » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:20 am

You can believe in your dualism. I'll believe in my non dualism.
The Amida Buddha is with me and I'm with Amida.
Total reliance.
Namu Amida Butsu
The Buddha taught


So, bhikkhus, you should train in this way: The heart-deliverance of loving-kindness will be maintained in being and made much of by us, used as our vehicle, used as our foundation, established, consolidated, and properly managed. That is how you should train
Samyutta Nikaya 20:3
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby zamotcr » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:08 pm

thunderbumble wrote:You can believe in your dualism. I'll believe in my non dualism.
The Amida Buddha is with me and I'm with Amida.
Total reliance.
Namu Amida Butsu


That is not the traditional understanding of Pure Land thunderbumble.

The idea behind Pure Land is not only right here, but also a place to be reborn after death. You can believe whatever you want, but the sutras, the patriarchs and several masters taught the PL as a place.
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Re: Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:34 pm

There are also patriarchs and masters who taught PL as pure mind.
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