"This"

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Re: "This"

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Sat May 29, 2010 12:34 am

Dexing wrote:Nagarjuna compared someone clinging to emptiness as a theory to "a customer to whom a merchant has said that he has nothing to sell and the customer now asks to buy this 'nothing' and carry it home".

:namaste:

:smile: :namaste:
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Sat May 29, 2010 4:11 pm

:namaste: Noble Laura,
i can see that clinging to emptiness as a "theory" could be silly, but what do you do when everything you perceive is empty?

if this is clinging to emptiness, you cant get away from it. everything is empty full stop. since everything is empty anyway, is there any harm in being immersed in emptiness. i have heard some people say that you should not dwell in anything.

you cant get away from emptiness... everything is empty, how could you not dwell in emptiness. so why do people say that it is not good to be attached to emptiness. all is empty anyway. at least thats the way i see it. this is not a theory, this is reality. what do we do when faced with the reality and the advice "not to make your stand in anything". i suppose you could say that emptiness is not "anything" to stand in.

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby catmoon » Sun May 30, 2010 12:46 am

It's weird but true, you can get attached to emptiness. Here's how:

1. Impute to it the properties of a view.
2. Impute ownership of that view.
3. Impute a high value to the view, and to the ownership.


And for advanced attachers,

4. Exaggerate the value of your new view without limit.
5. Denigrate anyone who fails to value your view as much as you do.


Five easy steps, nothing to it. I may not know the way to Nirvana, but I can get you to the hell realms in a flash! :stirthepot:
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Sun May 30, 2010 4:27 pm

:namaste: but Cat, i understand that attachment to a 'theory' of emptiness can be silly, and it seems clear that attachment to a 'view' about, or of emptiness can be fruitless, but what if one is attached to the real thing?

it is not good to rest in actual emptiness? is this an attachment to that which neither is nor is not? (emptiness).

at the moment i am not even seeking 'normal' mind, to just get on with things, not looking at emptiness/this too much, only occasionally looking at the emptiness of things.
i dont know whether this is correct or not. i dont have much confidence in my teacher sometimes, which is not good, but i know that he is brilliant. i am a very poor student, but that doesnt bother me, its just the way i am. i couldnt have a better teacher, and i know it.

best wishes, White Lotus.

ps. Cat, ive been through the hell realms, believe me! you too eh?!
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Sun May 30, 2010 4:44 pm

:namaste:
Hekigan Roku (Blue Cliff Record) Case 51 "What is This?"
(paraphrase)

Two monks turned up at Seppo's hermiatage. seppo jumped out of the gate and said "what is this?"
the monks also said "what is this?"
Seppo hung his head and popped back into the hermitage.

later the monks came to Ganto. who got them to recount their story about the visit to Seppo. Ganto said: "Ah, how I regret that in those days I did not tell him (Seppo) the last word!"

"If you want to know the last word, it is just this."


I would argue that this is emptiness and emptiness is this, so to say that this is the last word is hiding in the weeds of thisness. an attachment to emptiness.
there is not a thing that can be said. and no where to hide.

no where to hide,
no where to reside,
not even in emptiness,
far from this.
nothing clings. throw it out.
falling out of concepts is no
worse than falling into concepts.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby Dexing » Sun May 30, 2010 10:58 pm

White Lotus wrote::namaste: Noble Laura,
i can see that clinging to emptiness as a "theory" could be silly, but what do you do when everything you perceive is empty?


Perhaps stop talking about it (theory) and put that realization to use (practice).

you cant get away from emptiness... everything is empty, how could you not dwell in emptiness. so why do people say that it is not good to be attached to emptiness. all is empty anyway. at least thats the way i see it. this is not a theory, this is reality. what do we do when faced with the reality and the advice "not to make your stand in anything". i suppose you could say that emptiness is not "anything" to stand in.


The Buddha taught that Ordinary Beings are as if in a burning house. How do we get out of the house?

If you make something, there is something to burn. If you put everything down, there's no burning.

:namaste:
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Re: "This"

Postby catmoon » Mon May 31, 2010 12:48 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: but Cat, i understand that attachment to a 'theory' of emptiness can be silly, and it seems clear that attachment to a 'view' about, or of emptiness can be fruitless, but what if one is attached to the real thing?

it is not good to rest in actual emptiness? is this an attachment to that which neither is nor is not? (emptiness).




Such a question as you ask if probably beyond my abilities to answer, but I just can't resist having a bash at it anyhow.

First attempt: You refer to the "real thing". Of course, emptiness is not a thing! Thus one might say there is nothing to attach to, so if you are attached to emptiness you must be attached to a delusion, since attachment to actual emptiness is not possible.

Second attempt: If emptiness is a thing in the sense that it is a property of the universe, well, properties are concepts, imputations if you like, and we are back to attaching to a view.

Third attempt: It might be good to rest in emptiness, but it depends on what exactly you mean by resting. Emptiness is not a place, therefore there is no place you can go to rest in it. Understanding the emptiness of things thoroughly leads quietude and equanimity, or so I believe. Thus by a thorough understanding of what emptiness means, and more importantly, by a thorough understanding of what emptiness does not mean, one's mind naturally comes to a state of peace. This can be so even though one's life is very busy.

p.s. I sure hope Huifeng takes a look at this! He could probly blow the whole question to bits.
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Mon May 31, 2010 5:57 pm

:namaste: Nobles Dexing and Laura, thank you.

If you make something, there is something to burn. If you put everything down, there's no burning.


Understanding the emptiness of things thoroughly leads quietude and equanimity, or so I believe. Thus by a thorough understanding of what emptiness means, and more importantly, by a thorough understanding of what emptiness does not mean, one's mind naturally comes to a state of peace.


when seeing emptiness, see it... i cannot attach to it. there is no i to attach,
nor emptiness to be attached to. smokelike concerns, nothing but delusions.

how can you make something when theres no one to make, and nothing to make with. smokelike concerns, nothing but delusions.

when seeing emptiness... just see it. no worries. just as it is. just as i am/not.

thanks guys.

with respect, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby catmoon » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:54 am

White Lotus wrote::namaste: Nobles Dexing and Laura, thank you.



Understanding the emptiness of things thoroughly leads quietude and equanimity, or so I believe. Thus by a thorough understanding of what emptiness means, and more importantly, by a thorough understanding of what emptiness does not mean, one's mind naturally comes to a state of peace.


when seeing emptiness, see it... i cannot attach to it. there is no i to attach,
nor emptiness to be attached to. smokelike concerns, nothing but delusions.



That's pretty much what I was driving at. One might ask, "What is emptiness"? It is clearly neither a place nor a thing. If one views it as a property of things, one loses real emptiness and gains an impostor concept.
So what is it? Is it valid to say, emptiness is a method, applied to the mind, in an attempt clean up all the spurious concepts we attach to our perceptions?
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:10 pm

:namaste: Noble Catmoon...

So what is it? Is it valid to say, emptiness is a method, applied to the mind, in an attempt clean up all the spurious concepts we attach to our perceptions?


emptiness is something you actually perceive.

but guess what... emptiness is a bubble that you burst... then everything is just Mind, there is no longer emptiness. Your own nature is mind, objects are mind, sound is mind, wind is mind, emptiness is mind, form is mind. With me emptiness came first, then it burst and i broke through to a perception of all being Mind.

at one time i would say... no mind, no nature, no world, no reality.
then i said, not mind not mindlessness, not nature not without nature... not real, and not without reality. now.

now i say Mind is Mind, nature is nature, world is world, reality is reality, void is void. but fundamentally i see all things as having the one flavour of Mind.

what is mind? this feeling you have within you right now is mind. the feeling of what is within you is mind, the feeling of what you see outside you is mind, the feeling of heart is mind, the feeling in your head is mind. your body is mind... it is all one feeling. have a look and you will see!

with love, White Lotus. x


with love and great respect, I say
the mind transmission of Huang Po is complete,
leaving emptiness behind, i see things
in a whole new light. its all thoroughly real.
Bodhidharma broke through emptiness to Mind.
Mind communicates to Mind.
It is whatever you want it be.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:20 pm

catmoon wrote:It's weird but true, you can get attached to emptiness. Here's how:

1. Impute to it the properties of a view.
2. Impute ownership of that view.
3. Impute a high value to the view, and to the ownership.


And for advanced attachers,

4. Exaggerate the value of your new view without limit.
5. Denigrate anyone who fails to value your view as much as you do.


Five easy steps, nothing to it. I may not know the way to Nirvana, but I can get you to the hell realms in a flash! :stirthepot:


Funny stuff :applause:
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Re: "This"

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:50 pm

catmoon wrote:So what would be the origin of these false thoughts of solidity?

Karma?
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Re: "This"

Postby catmoon » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:59 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
catmoon wrote:So what would be the origin of these false thoughts of solidity?

Karma?


No no no I'm talkin about this life. Oh wait, maybe you are too?
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:14 pm

:namaste: thoughts of solidity are not false, neither is perception of emptiness. just mind, in two of its many differernt flavours.

No no no I'm talkin about this life. Oh wait, maybe you are too?


we all talk about this life, everyone has her or his own dharma. every dharma is mind dharma. a diamond has many glints. a pearl reflects truth from all angles.

1. Impute to it the properties of a view.
2. Impute ownership of that view.
3. Impute a high value to the view, and to the ownership.

And for advanced attachers,
4. Exaggerate the value of your new view without limit.
5. Denigrate anyone who fails to value your view as much as you do.


just prcticing Mind dharma through elevated view.

With love, from White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:24 am

White Lotus wrote:enjoying ice cream... it is enlightenment.

drinking tea... is perfect emptiness, just as it is.


Dear White Lotus,

I just don't think these things are "enlightenment."

Enlightenment is a just more complex and more challenging than what you imagine or say.

Eating an ice cream and enjoying those sense pleasures isn't cessation or enlightenment or any sort of accomplishment as I understand it in the Buddhist sense.

Kindly,
Laura
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Re: "This"

Postby Dexing » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:54 am

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Eating an ice cream and enjoying those sense pleasures isn't cessation or enlightenment or any sort of accomplishment as I understand it in the Buddhist sense.


It's not about enjoying sense pleasures, but completely being a part of your moment-to-moment experience. Moment-to-moment, whatever you are doing, that's your life. Enlightenment only happens now. Just like this.

Enlightenment is a just more complex and more challenging than what you imagine or say.


"Enlightenment" is only as complex and special as you think it up to be.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Re: "This"

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:13 am

Yes, pure view and all :)
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Re: "This"

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:41 pm

:namaste: people tend to think that enlightenment is something. actually it is nothing at all. a wise master once asked what sudden illumination is answered... that there is no illumination to attain. in enlightenment there is no attainment whatsoever.

there are things that one may perceive, such as the emptiness of own nature, mind and phenomena, but this perceiveing is completely unnecessary. people are always looking for enlightenment, but actually there is nothing to find.

i have broken through the iron wall of emptiness and now perceive all things as Mind. the experience is not the same as that of emptiness Mind. it is completely normal. in emptiness mind, mind itself is empty, and you can sense this. when consciousness perceives Mind, it is gently radiant, but nonetheless completely normal. i have heard people say that you cannot find Mind with Mind... this i strongly disagree with. a mind can perceive itself. instead of everything being empty to the perception. i now see all things as a presence.

every idea, every form, cans of food, cups, computers, concrete are all individualites and yet one and the same mind... which is how it was with emptiness, but now it is all things with the flavour of mind. emptiness is gone.
Just ask the Buddha.

i have a funny question! if i am just a figment of Mind, which i am. who is this mind that thinks me?

Laura... thanks for your humour! Dexing... thanks for your insight!

best wishes, White Lotus.

from not a thing from the start,
to not without a thing, from the start.
too much ice cream can make you ill!
but a little... well, thats another matter.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "This"

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:51 pm

i have a funny question! if i am just a figment of Mind, which i am. who is this mind that thinks me?

Laura... thanks for your humour! Dexing... thanks for your insight!


Your a collection of a bunch of stuffs called the skandhas. I'm glad you like my humor, gentle as it is.
Life can be fun :D

Best,
Laura
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Re: "This"

Postby el gatito » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:07 pm

"this"???..

through the mist breaking
with shadow and light playing
soundlessly it comes..

having touched no thing
it fades away unnoticed
leaving no traces..

the words won't hit "this"!..
discussing what's "this", what's not
has little merit..

"this" rain never stops!..
when my roof is not leaking
my head is not wet..


:toilet:
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