mental illness and Buddhism

[Jesse]

Basically, if someone is unable to be helped by Buddhist methods, well, they are beyond the ability to practice Dharma, and do not have what's termed a "precious human life"..

I am not here to prove or disprove anything but monks who are deeply knowledge into the Dhamma should be able to help the patients, but apparently they can not or they do not want or they do not have time , I do not know

I was helped by a thai forest monk, I visited their watt along time ago and he invited me to their meditation practice. He was very kind, and told me something that I didn't quite understand at the time. "Thinking too much can harm you, and can make you sick.".

It at least partially pushed me into practicing buddhism about a year later(After I found this site and found the content interesting.), it took me a bit of time practicing but when I understood what he meant, it was quite a realization for me.

So can they help us? Yes.. can they help us if we don't put forth any effort? No. In buddhism, no one can liberate you, or free you from your karma, you must do it. Teachers and wiser practitioners can give you good advice, and wisdom, but it's up to us to actualize it.

In the very same way someone who is in CBT Therapy will not get better unless they put forth the effort to put it in practice.

I won't even mention how many teachings there are because other people have done so. If we put forth effort and come across some of these teachings, they do actually have the power to heal us.

[Johnny Dangerous]

[Dan74]

Luca, whether or not Buddhism is able to help mental illness is itself debatable, as some people here have said that methods exist and masters exists who are capable of using these methods.

On the other hand as others have also said, Buddhism has not concerned itself with brain chemistry and medical science, so although there may be ways in some cases at least, to restore severely damaged mental health through Buddhist methods, this has not been the primary concern of Buddhism.

If you would like to come here and argue that Buddhism has failed, please don't waste your energy and rather spend it on something positive in your life.

_/|\_
dan

[Luca123]

Luca, whether or not Buddhism is able to help mental illness is itself debatable, as some people here have said that methods exist and masters exists who are capable of using these methods.

On the other hand as others have also said, Buddhism has not concerned itself with brain chemistry and medical science, so although there may be ways in some cases at least, to restore severely damaged mental health through Buddhist methods, this has not been the primary concern of Buddhism.

One may just wonder why, since all Buddha teachings are about relieving from suffering and mentally disturbed people are suffering a lot

If you would like to come here and argue that Buddhism has failed, please don't waste your energy and rather spend it on something positive in your life.

_/|\_
dan

Why put in my mouth words I have never said?
Are you trying to bully me out of the forum?

[Dan74]

Luca, I saw a lot of your posts on the other Wheel and have serious doubts you are here to learn anything.

Buddha's intention is to relieve suffering, but if the suffering is occasioned by a cancer, then doctors can play a big part too. If the mental illness has an underlying physical cause, doctors can help a lot. This isn't hard to understand, is it?

[Luca123]

Basically, if someone is unable to be helped by Buddhist methods, well, they are beyond the ability to practice Dharma, and do not have what's termed a "precious human life"..

I am not here to prove or disprove anything but monks who are deeply knowledge into the Dhamma should be able to help the patients, but apparently they can not or they do not want or they do not have time , I do not know

I was helped by a thai forest monk, I visited their watt along time ago and he invited me to their meditation practice. He was very kind, and told me something that I didn't quite understand at the time. "Thinking too much can harm you, and can make you sick.".

It at least partially pushed me into practicing buddhism about a year later(After I found this site and found the content interesting.), it took me a bit of time practicing but when I understood what he meant, it was quite a realization for me.

So can they help us? Yes.. can they help us if we don't put forth any effort? No. In buddhism, no one can liberate you, or free you from your karma, you must do it. Teachers and wiser practitioners can give you good advice, and wisdom, but it's up to us to actualize it.

In the very same way someone who is in CBT Therapy will not get better unless they put forth the effort to put it in practice.

I won't even mention how many teachings there are because other people have done so. If we put forth effort and come across some of these teachings, they do actually have the power to heal us.

I agree with everything you said
But you have to understand that most mentally disturbed people are simply not in condition to study Buddhism and to follow his teaching techniques, in fact most of the non-mentally disturbed people have enormous problems in following Buddha teachings, as most of them do not even follow the path or disrobe after a few weeks or months
This is why mentally disturbed people have to rely on pharmaceutical products
Maybe we are sying the same thing, though

[Luca123]

Luca, I saw a lot of your posts on the other Wheel and have serious doubts you are here to learn anything.

I consider "learning" as asking questions with inquiry -ful mind, not just taking everything they tell me as granted, maybe we have two different concepts of learnin Yes, I was gently told in the other forum to leave and so I did, I will not stay here for much longer, promised

Buddha's intention is to relieve suffering, but if the suffering is occasioned by a cancer, then doctors can play a big part too. If the mental illness has an underlying physical cause, doctors can help a lot. This isn't hard to understand, is it?

It isnt
What may be difficult to understand from you, is that western medicine that cures cancer and helps cure mental illnesses does not come out of thin air, but it is the effort of passionate and skillful engineers and scientists who know nothing about Buddhism and have instead much attachment to their work, families and money, which is something Buddhism more or less condemns, but is very useful to relieve a lot of sufferig
I tried to make this point in the other forum, but with not much success

[Johnny Dangerous]

Luca, I saw a lot of your posts on the other Wheel and have serious doubts you are here to learn anything.

I consider "learning" as asking questions with inquiry -ful mind, not just taking everything they tell me as granted, maybe we have two different concepts of learnin Yes, I was gently told in the other forum to leave and so I did, I will not stay here for much longer, promised

Buddha's intention is to relieve suffering, but if the suffering is occasioned by a cancer, then doctors can play a big part too. If the mental illness has an underlying physical cause, doctors can help a lot. This isn't hard to understand, is it?

It isnt
What may be difficult to understand from you, is that western medicine that cures cancer and helps cure mental illnesses does not come out of thin air, but it is the effort of passionate and skillful engineers and scientists who know nothing about Buddhism and have instead much attachment to their work, families and money, which is something Buddhism more or less condemns, but is very useful to relieve a lot of sufferig
I tried to make this point in the other forum, but with not much success

You aren't making any particularly good points, and you are making some broad, and incorrect statements about Buddhism - perhaps that's why people don't see what you are putting down as any kind of "point".

Is there a specific teaching or doctrinal point you are objecting to? If you are just here to somehow argue against Buddhism, that really is not what the forum is for, as you will see even from a brief view of the ToS found here:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=12768

[Dan74]

Well, I have nothing but respect for scientists, engineers and doctors. You know some of them are even Buddhists?

There is no contradiction, Luca. Buddhism is about the mind, its habitual patterns that cause much suffering to ourselves and people around us, which is why some scientists and engineers embrace it (like Matthieu Ricard, scientist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard, Sam Harris, scientist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_%28author%29, U.N. Gunasekera, engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._N._Gunasekera etc).

[Luca123]

Well, I have nothing but respect for scientists, engineers and doctors. You know some of them are even Buddhists?

There is no contradiction, Luca. Buddhism is about the mind, its habitual patterns that cause much suffering to ourselves and people around us, which is why some scientists and engineers embrace it (like Matthieu Ricard, scientist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard, Sam Harris, scientist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_%28author%29, U.N. Gunasekera, engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._N._Gunasekera etc).

Well, you do not see any contradition, I see it
This is a letter I sent to a few monks, I got no reply
I report it as I find it appropriate
This will be my last post here, since I have received a warning

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Monks,
my name is xxxx and I am a 42-year old practicing Zen
I have been interested in Theravada Buddhism recently and I have a question very important for me about which I can not get an answer.
I would like you to reply, if you are not interested, please feel free to trash this mail.
This letter has been sent to a number of monks, scholars and professors of Theravada Buddhism.
Here is my question:
In Theravada Buddhism, attachment is seen as one of the kilesas, that are preventing the person from reaching Enlightenment
However, it looks to me that not only this is not always the case, but at times attachment is actually working for the spread of the Dhamma and therefore helping people to reach Enlightenment
In the modern era, the Dhamma is being spread thanks to books and through the internet
However, companies printing books and companies that produce computers have been found at least on some degree thanks to attachment to money and by people passionate for their work
I dont think there is one single company on Earth that has been founded on purely altruistic reasons.
The transistor, the first printed Bible have been succeeded thanks to people with attachment to their work.
And today such inventions and products help the spread of the Dhamma
Foreign monks travel to Thai using planes and planes need fuel, which means companies producing oil and we all know that there is a lot of greed helping oil being produced and therefore it looks to me that this greed is helping foreign monks come to Thai and the spread the Dhamma
So attachment seems to work for the spread of the Dhamma, which should not be the case
As a note, we can not say that if we lived in a world without attachment there would be no need of the Dhamma, as we do not know about any world without attachment, so we can only speak about this world, where attachment seems to work to help the Dhamma being spreread
It has been said that the Dhamma is the path to the end of suffering.
There is a 4-year-old cancer survivor.
If the Buddha were here, he could have done nothing to help her survive, she would have died in pain
However, thanks to modern medical technology, she is now alive and smiling and she may even become a Buddhist one day, since she did not die. .
And where does modern medical technology come from?
From the hard work of engineers, the attachment they have for their jobs, for their position, for their role, for their families, and, why not, from some money.
All things that the Buddha said are working against the ath of ending the suffering.
Still, for this girl it was the other way around.
Is not a contradiction?
Another contradiction in my opinion is that Buddhist monks have mapped the human mind for the last 2500 years but we still have to rely on psychologists for the cure of serious mental illnesses like schizohrenia where Buddhism seems of no help.
Regards,

[Pringle]

I guess for me, mental illness and physical illness are the same thing in my opinion, and in both situations sometimes dharma is helpful, sometimes more is needed.

Some types of physical illness are brought about by our own doing, such as eating a poor diet can lead to low immune systems and cause other nutrient deficiencies that can result in a number of physical illnesses or living a highly stressful life that could lead to heart problems and other stress related illness. Mental illness can be like this as well, sometimes due to a wrong view we can see situations and add lay upon lay of negative thoughts on top of it until our wrong views have lead us to feeling depressed or our worrying over all little things has caused an anxiety disorder. I think in these types of situations, were our actions and our thoughts are either the reason or a contributing factor to the illness, then Dharma can be very beneficial. Through dharma we start looking after ourselves better, eat better and generally less stressed or we are able to control our thoughts and train our minds to relieve our suffering.

However there are many physical illnesses that will just happen, no one is to blame and nothing they could of done previously could of prevented it, and these illness can't be over come with dharma. Meditating is not going to kill cancer. For this specialised treatment is going to be needed, there is no getting around that. Yes dharma would still be beneficial in this case, may give people courage, and the strength they need to overcome there physical illness and may relieve the stress and even some of the pain involved in this, however it isn't the cure. The same is true for a lot of mental illnesses, at least in my opinion. Meditation may well help schizophrenia or severe depression, but with a lot of mental illness there is going to be a lot of chemical imbalances and a simple sit down mediation isn't going to be able to rectify all these. As such, just as you need a doctor to help beat cancer, a doctor and medication may well be just as needed to cure the mental illness.

Also there is a wide range of mental illness that are being left out of this discussion and as has been said previously each illness will require a different treatment, just like any other illness. Someone who has schizophrenia and is hearing voices is going to need completely different treatment than someone who has survived sexual abuse and is dealing with post traumatic stress and flash backs, just like different medicines will be needed to treat cancer compared to a broken leg.

I think the issues of mental illness, its causes and is treatments are such a complex ones that there is no single 'yes dharma will help' or 'no dharma wont' help' answer and each case needs to be treated on it's own merits rather than a generalisation. Not all mental illness come from the same causes and so not all will need the same treatments.

[Natan]

Buddhadhara is the cure. I swear.

I hate to repeat myself but.. then why isnt Buddhadhara used in mental hospitals? Not even in Buddhist countries like Thai or Sri Lanka

Bc the medical profession is stupid when it comes to mental health.

[Loren Enders]

I guess for me, mental illness and physical illness are the same thing in my opinion, [...]

I used to mainline amphetamine and have given myself an amphetamine-induced psychosis 4 times. Was physical and mental I think. Brain can remap but those times don't think it was physical damage but more chemical. First time did not seek medical attention and that was stupid. Only western medicine would have helped then I feel.

But yeah damaging ourselves seems to be something humans do quite well.

[Pringle]

Buddhadhara is the cure. I swear.

I hate to repeat myself but.. then why isnt Buddhadhara used in mental hospitals? Not even in Buddhist countries like Thai or Sri Lanka

Bc the medical profession is stupid when it comes to mental health.

Buddhist techniques are used within the mental health enviroment, this has been stated previously. They may not call is Buddhadharma, but I can assure you the techniques on mindfullness can be taken straight out of a sutra.

However as previosuly said, not all mental health problems can be overcome just by strength of practice, just like cancer needs cancer fighting drugs, some mental health illnesses will require a drug or techniqure that isn't buddhist based