Dealing With Desire

[Stewart]

What do you mean by "must correspond to kama"? Restorative of what? Coz it seems to me that one traditions restoration is another traditions innovation.

It means that in termas there isn't anything what wasn't in the kama, there isn't anything "new", it is all based on kama. Like if you revealed a terma which would explain how God created the world and sent his son to redeem us of our sins, it wouldn't correspond to kama.
Restorative of the transmission, pure samaya.

Yes exactly...

The purpose of Termas are to refresh, not reinvent.

[Ramon1920]

Three things come to mind with regards to dealing with desire, they all are activities of giving proper attention: Benefits and disadvantages, the false appearance, and the internal feelings (winds if you will).


Benefits and disadvantages:
For whatever reason I am having trouble looking up suttas lately, so here is what I remember.
There is a sutta where Buddha Shakyamuni defines wisdom as doing what is painful and difficult but results in long term benefit. Here he outlines the fourfold permutations of sukha-dukkha, sukha-dukkha, dukkha-sukha, and dukkha-dukkha. The meaning here is this respectively, doing what is pleasant but results in pleasantness long term, pleasant leading to unpleasant long term results, unpleasant activities leading to pleasant long term results, and unpleasant activities leading to unpleasant results.

Using this sutta(sorry for not posting a reference link) as a guideline you can consider the long term result of your desire and goad yourself to prepare for the long term rather than the cheap fleeting experience you might garner from a lesser acquisition.

The False Appearance
Here the false appearance is manifold depending on just what exactly your desire is based on and they are listed in poison-antidote style in order of efficacy from least to greatest.

The false appearance as wholesome, permanent, and clean in regards to the body, food, experiences, etc. can be addressed topically and individually by giving attention to the details that oppose that appearance. For example the body is wholesome, permanent, and clean: it is just a mass of organic matter, it is vulnerable and lasts only a couple decades at most, there is no part of the body that if you examined alone(i.e. separated from the rest) could be considered as clean.

The false appearance of self and phenomenon as inherently real and valuable, worth while, etc. is countered with wisdom realizing the emptiness of these qualities. These hassle-some imaginary qualities that drag us into the mud constantly are called the object to be negated, as they are what things are empty of. Emptiness is no easy subject to understand so be wary of self assessments of your attainments and keep studying. If I may attempt to quote sutta verbatim, "Oh Ananda, do not say that, it is by not understanding this dependent arising that beings are continually reborn in destitute states".

Internal Feelings
Desire leaves behind habituation to desire in the nervous system. The thought or contact with the desired object sets off a chain reaction of feelings in the body. That feeling screaming inside you when you are trying to diet, or that whoosh of pleasant hormones that overcomes you when you come in contact with a prospective sexual partner, are the result of a chain reaction set off in your nervous system by a subtle "wind".

It is not within the capacity of average people to do this, and it is said that only an Arahant can fully control the outflowings (Sabbasava sutta majjhima), but with some meditative experience you may be able to spot and disrupt these subtle winds before they fruition into the hormonal soup that makes you compulsive and irrationally bent on getting something that will harm you in the long run.


So I will end this post with a quote from Sabbasava Sutta regarding giving up craving(desire).

"He (that) has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering & stress."

I apologize for not citing everything properly.

[MalaBeads]

Applying antidotes is just housekeeping in a dream.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I'm sure I must have missed the point here because I still do not understand what is being said here.

Why would housekeeping, in a dream or otherwise, be an antidote to anything?

As someone who cleaned houses for a living for many years, I came to understand the housekeeping is something that is done for its own sake. Either you do it or you don't. Either way, it is not important.

Any kind of manual labor is like this I think. You either come to love it for its own sake or you don't. But it is not an antidote to anything. (Unless you are doing it because you are concerned what others might in of you if you don't....but that's a different situation).

Anyway, this example puzzles me....

[conebeckham]

Applying antidotes is just housekeeping in a dream.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I'm sure I must have missed the point here because I still do not understand what is being said here.

Why would housekeeping, in a dream or otherwise, be an antidote to anything?

As someone who cleaned houses for a living for many years, I came to understand the housekeeping is something that is done for its own sake. Either you do it or you don't. Either way, it is not important.

Any kind of manual labor is like this I think. You either come to love it for its own sake or you don't. But it is not an antidote to anything. (Unless you are doing it because you are concerned what others might in of you if you don't....but that's a different situation).

Anyway, this example puzzles me....

The point is that, when one wakes from the dream, neither the straightening up nor the original mess are important.

Or, in other words, antidotes are appropriate only insofar as the original situation needing the antidote is seen to be real.

Or, one could say, the ultimate antidote is to transcend the need for antidotes. This is waking from the dream.

[Konchog1]

Three things come to mind with regards to dealing with desire, they all are activities of giving proper attention: Benefits and disadvantages, the false appearance, and the internal feelings (winds if you will).

[...]

While this is all true, its more in line with Theravada. Whereas this is a Mahayana forum.

[Malcolm]

Three things come to mind with regards to dealing with desire, they all are activities of giving proper attention: Benefits and disadvantages, the false appearance, and the internal feelings (winds if you will).

[...]

While this is all true, its more in line with Theravada. Whereas this is a Mahayana forum.

This is a classic Mahāyāna formulation:


Objects and poisons are alike, pleasing just when first tasted.
Objects and poisons are alike, their result is unpleasant and unbearable.
Objects and poisons are alike, causing one to be clouded by the darkness of ignorance.
Objects and poisons are alike, their power is hard to reverse, and deceptive, etc…

[Grigoris]

It means that in termas there isn't anything what wasn't in the kama, there isn't anything "new", it is all based on kama. Like if you revealed a terma which would explain how God created the world and sent his son to redeem us of our sins, it wouldn't correspond to kama.

So terma are always part of the vehicle of cause and effect? There are no, for example, Dzogchen terma?

Restorative of the transmission, pure samaya.

This statement does not really make sense. Transmission of what?

The purpose of Termas are to refresh, not reinvent.

I did not say anything about reinventing, I said modification and transformation. Mahayana and Vajrayana (for example) are not a reinvention.

[spot dawa]

Three things come to mind with regards to dealing with desire, they all are activities of giving proper attention: Benefits and disadvantages, the false appearance, and the internal feelings (winds if you will).

[...]

While this is all true, its more in line with Theravada. Whereas this is a Mahayana forum.

Konchog, the first post to this thread requested Theravadan input as well.

There is a sutta where Buddha Shakyamuni defines wisdom as doing what is painful and difficult but results in long term benefit.

With this in mind, one Sutra that fits the description is MN 46 The Greater Discourse on Ways of Undertaking Things.

[Pero]

It means that in termas there isn't anything what wasn't in the kama, there isn't anything "new", it is all based on kama. Like if you revealed a terma which would explain how God created the world and sent his son to redeem us of our sins, it wouldn't correspond to kama.

So terma are always part of the vehicle of cause and effect? There are no, for example, Dzogchen terma?

I don't understand the question. Of course there is Dzogchen terma. Unless you're trying to say Dzogchen has no kama or something.

Restorative of the transmission, pure samaya.

This statement does not really make sense. Transmission of what?

Uhm transmission of the teachings, empowerments, lungs and samaya that comes with them...

[Grigoris]

I don't understand the question. Of course there is Dzogchen terma. Unless you're trying to say Dzogchen has no kama or something.

Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect.

[Pero]

I don't understand the question. Of course there is Dzogchen terma. Unless you're trying to say Dzogchen has no kama or something.

Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect.

Well yeah but I still don't get what your point was?

[mutsuk]

Greg, I may be wrong but I think you read the phonetic kama as corresponding to pali kamma (skt karma). What Pero (and Malcolm) were talking about is bKa'-ma (phonetized as *kama). bKa' ma is a collection of orally transmitted works which were put into written form (or more precisely compiled and edited) by Lochen Dharma sri and Terdak Lingpa. It is supposed to contain works orally (bka') transmitted since the 8th century in tibetan language. Terma teachings are or should be in harmony with the teachings of Kama (bKa' ma), as a demonstration of their canonicity.

[Malcolm]

Greg, I may be wrong but I think you read the phonetic kama as corresponding to pali kamma (skt karma). What Pero (and Malcolm) were talking about is bKa'-ma (phonetized as *kama). bKa' ma is a collection of orally transmitted works which were put into written form (or more precisely compiled and edited) by Lochen Dharma sri and Terdak Lingpa. It is supposed to contain works orally (bka') transmitted since the 8th century in tibetan language. Terma teachings are or should be in harmony with the teachings of Kama (bKa' ma), as a demonstration of their canonicity.

For example, the Guhyagarbha is kama, shitro is Terma. Both have the mandala of peaceful and wrathful deities; the authority for the latter rests on the former.

[Grigoris]

Greg, I may be wrong but I think you read the phonetic kama as corresponding to pali kamma (skt karma). What Pero (and Malcolm) were talking about is bKa'-ma (phonetized as *kama). bKa' ma is a collection of orally transmitted works which were put into written form (or more precisely compiled and edited) by Lochen Dharma sri and Terdak Lingpa. It is supposed to contain works orally (bka') transmitted since the 8th century in tibetan language. Terma teachings are or should be in harmony with the teachings of Kama (bKa' ma), as a demonstration of their canonicity.

Yup, you got it! Thanks for the info! Back to the program!

[MalaBeads]

Applying antidotes is just housekeeping in a dream.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I'm sure I must have missed the point here because I still do not understand what is being said here.

Why would housekeeping, in a dream or otherwise, be an antidote to anything?

As someone who cleaned houses for a living for many years, I came to understand the housekeeping is something that is done for its own sake. Either you do it or you don't. Either way, it is not important.

Any kind of manual labor is like this I think. You either come to love it for its own sake or you don't. But it is not an antidote to anything. (Unless you are doing it because you are concerned what others might in of you if you don't....but that's a different situation).

Anyway, this example puzzles me....

The point is that, when one wakes from the dream, neither the straightening up nor the original mess are important.

Or, in other words, antidotes are appropriate only insofar as the original situation needing the antidote is seen to be real.

Or, one could say, the ultimate antidote is to transcend the need for antidotes. This is waking from the dream.

OK.

"Either way, it is not important."

[conebeckham]

For those who have awoken from the dream, or at least have a pretty solid understanding that they are IN the dream, it may not be important.

For most of us, though, it's quite important how we clean, how we maintain our house.

[MalaBeads]

For those who have awoken from the dream, or at least have a pretty solid understanding that they are IN the dream, it may not be important.

For most of us, though, it's quite important how we clean, how we maintain our house.

Cone,

The other day I found myself writing in an email to a friend, "If we can't be with things as they are, what's a life for??"

So if it's important to you to have a clean house, may you enjoy your activity of cleaning.

If it's not important to you to have a clean house, may you enjoy your house as it is.

After many years of cleaning other people's houses, I've come to enjoy the activity a bit. When people pay you to clean their houses, there is a certain expectation. Luckily, I don't clean houses anymore.

My motto these days is "if it bothers you, clean it up. If it doesn't bother you, let it be. If you're having company, pay respect to their dimension and offer them cleanliness."

Beyond that, in a dream or not in a dream, I don't know much.

[Ramon1920]

Thank you Spot Dawa for finding it. I imagine it could be like other standard teachings and reappear many times in various texts and MN 46 is definitely one of them like you've written.

Three things come to mind with regards to dealing with desire, they all are activities of giving proper attention: Benefits and disadvantages, the false appearance, and the internal feelings (winds if you will).

[...]

While this is all true, its more in line with Theravada. Whereas this is a Mahayana forum.

Konchog1, I've grown accustomed to using Nikaya texts as a resource because they are widely accessible, acceptable, and applicable to Buddhists in general. I think excluding Nikaya texts from Mahayana curriculum and discussion is a mistake because it is non-negotiable part of the Mahayana package. Also, I haven't personally had much luck in finding reliable teachers or even texts for Mahayana sutra. Finding someone who knows Mahayana texts well I gather is very rare though I haven't exactly scoured the Earth for them for lack of funds.

The portion of my previous post has a section on the false appearance and phenomenal emptiness of the object to be negated. That is specifically Mahayana terminology if that counts for anything.

The portion of my previous post has a section on "winds", which is compatible with some tantric concepts of subtle karmas or something of that nature.

The portion of my previous post has a section on benefits and disadvantages, which is compatible with instructions of various sorts. Most notably and forward compatible with I imagine just about all the Mahayana schools is the primer, Shantideva's Bodhicharyaavatara, where many arguments are formulated into weighing the benefits and disadvantages of various views and actions to expose their far reaching ramifications: positive or negative.

Below Shantideva weighs the benefits and disadvantages of retaliating in regards to others' welfare:

Chapter 6 on showing patience:
(50) If I have the advantage of wishing (to be patient),
I won't be going to a joyless realm;
But although I'm safeguarding myself (in this way),
What happens to them in this matter?

(51) And if I were to harm them back instead,
They wouldn't be safeguarded either,
While my (other bodhisattva) behavior would also decline,
And, consequently, those having trials would be lost.

[Karma Dorje]

For those who have awoken from the dream, or at least have a pretty solid understanding that they are IN the dream, it may not be important.

For most of us, though, it's quite important how we clean, how we maintain our house.

Not to mention that even if you have awakened from the dream, for the illusion-like benefit of the illusion-like dream beings, you still may clean the house to inspire them and set a good example.

[LastLegend]

You can dance on books all day and you will never alter this fact. I can give you a hundred citations from the very sutras and texts you cite [that the bodhisattva path is path of renouncing sense objects], and still you will never retreat from your point of view.

M

I disagree it is not the path of renouncing sense objects, but the path of renouncing attachment to sense objects. If they renounce sense objects, they would not be eating and drinking.

Mahayana teaches the mind and put emphasis on the mind. It is strange that you keep equating the path of bodhisattva with the path of Arahant. Sure there are similarities. The key difference is Mahayana does not stay dead on precepts and vows. A Mahayana would lie to a hunter to save a rabbit. A Mahayana monk would drink if by drinking at the moment, he skillfully opens Dharma door to those who drink and shy away from Dharma. Mahayana does not say to people they can't have have family, drink, and have to be vegetarian to be a Buddhist. Why call it Mahayana at all?