Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:04 am
Buddhism does seem very hopeless to me at times as well but I prefer realness over hopelessness. It's tough, what can we do but practice?
A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
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this is true at a macro level and could be said of many religions, i.e., accept the lord Jesus as your savior and enter the kingdom of heaven forever and ever - doesn't get more hopeful than that.JKhedrup wrote:But I think it is very hopeful because Buddhism shows the path to freedom from afflictions.
If there were nothing to be done, that would be depressing.
I was watching the documentary Yogis of Tibet and ran across this 3 parter on Milarepa. I'm not usually moved by these kind of things, and I already knew the life story of Milarepa, but for some reason, this had a profound impact on me.Feathers wrote:Uan, could you link any of the things you have been reading/watching on Milarepa?
The last paragraph is very interesting. When people talk about the finger pointing towards the moon and that we shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon, what often happens is that is exactly what we are doing when we use that phrase. We know "Voidness" is the finger and not the moon. But we often think the definition of "Voidness" (or Emptiness, or no-self, or karma, or ego clinging, etc.) is the moon. But the definitions themselves are still the fingers. Understanding the definition is still just the finger pointing to the moon. The moon is still just a finger. Inherent in the language is that there is a moon or "thing" out there. But it's inside each of us. And it's not a thing or an it. As Milarepa points out, "it" is a realization and it's beyond words.Milarepa's Initial Realizations
I have understood this body of mine to be the product of ignorance, composed of flesh and blood and lit up by the perceptive power of consciousness. To those fortunate ones who long for emancipation it may be the great vessel by which they may procure Freedom. But to the unfortunates who only sin, it may be the guide to lower and miserable states of existence. This our life is the boundary mark whence one may take an upward or downward path. Our present time is a most precious time, wherein each of us must decide, in one way or other, for lasting good or lasting ill.
One who aims only at his own individual peace and happiness adopts the lower path (Hinayana), but he who devotes the merits of his love and compassion to the cause of others belongs to the higher path (Mahayana).
In meditating on the Final Goal, one has to discover the non-existence of the personal Ego, and therefore the fallacy that it exists (i.e. because everything in the universe with name and form is basically illusory in nature)
To realize the state of non-existence of the personal ego, the mind must be kept in quiescence. In that state, thoughts, ideas, and cognition cease and the mind (awareness) passes into a state of perfect tranquility so that days, months, and years may pass without the person perceiving it; thus the passage of time has to be marked for him by others.
The visions of the forms of the Deities which appear in meditation are merely signs attending the perseverance in meditation. They have no intrinsic worth or value in themselves.
All the efforts put forth during this path must be made in a spirit of compassion with the aim of dedicating the merit of one's efforts to the Universal Good. There is a need of mentally praying and wishing for blessings on others so earnestly that one's mind processes also transcend thought.
Just as the mere name of food does not satisfy the appetite of a hungry person but he must eat food, so also a man who would learn about the Voidness (i.e. Universal Awareness) must meditate so as to realize it, not just learn of its definition.
very well said!!!!!uan wrote:it's inside each of us. And it's not a thing or an it. As Milarepa points out, "it" is a realization and it's beyond words.
Most religions say that if you're a good person, follow a moral life, and perform your religious obligations (including having faith), you get to go to heaven.jeeprs wrote:I think the sense of hopelessness is an affliction. It is not really part of the teaching. I am sure it is something we all experience from time of time but I don't see why it should be associated with Buddhism in particular.
Even Tantra promises Enlightenment in 16 lifetimes if you keep Samaya. If everyone attained Enlightenment in one lifetime, this promise wouldn't be made since it wouldn't be needed.PorkChop wrote:Tantra aside
Pokrchop wrote:Buddhism's a long game - from stream entry it can take 7 lifetimes to reach Arahat status and that's one of the short ones.
There seems a common thread here. 'I' will go along for some time, and then 'I' will 'go to heaven' or 'undergo seven more rebirths' or 'escape the wheel of samsara'. But isn't that whole understanding that the 'anatman' - the 'no I' - criticism is aimed at undermining in the first place? Aren't we forgetting the very basic fact, that there really is no 'I' that persists through time and then goes to this or that state? Maybe the very thing that binds us to this wheel is the sense that we are someone who has to be freed from it. (I am no excerption to that, I am not saying this is something that I realize that others don't.) I think it is important to grasp the notion that in an important sense, enlightenment is present right now. No, this doesn't mean 'I am enlightened', in fact, that statement is self-contradictory - where there is enlightenment, there is no 'I'. I think we have this notion of what 'enightenment' must be, like a pot of gold at the end of the mythological rainbow, and we are slogging our way there. But where are we meanwhile? RIght now, in fact? That, I think, is the question.Paul Williams wrote: What will become of me?
I began to see that if Buddhism were correct then unless I attained enlightenment (nirvana) or something like it in this life, where the whole cycle of rebirth would finally come to a complete end, I would have no hope.
To loosely quote Peter Harvey, there is no separate, static Self, but there is a conventional/empirical self that changes moment to moment.jeeprs wrote:Pokrchop wrote:Buddhism's a long game - from stream entry it can take 7 lifetimes to reach Arahat status and that's one of the short ones.There seems a common thread here. 'I' will go along for some time, and then 'I' will 'go to heaven' or 'undergo seven more rebirths' or 'escape the wheel of samsara'. But isn't that whole understanding that the 'anatman' - the 'no I' - criticism is aimed at undermining in the first place? Aren't we forgetting the very basic fact, that there really is no 'I' that persists through time and then goes to this or that state? Maybe the very thing that binds us to this wheel is the sense that we are someone who has to be freed from it. (I am no excerption to that, I am not saying this is something that I realize that others don't.) I think it is important to grasp the notion that in an important sense, enlightenment is present right now. No, this doesn't mean 'I am enlightened', in fact, that statement is self-contradictory - where there is enlightenment, there is no 'I'. I think we have this notion of what 'enightenment' must be, like a pot of gold at the end of the mythological rainbow, and we are slogging our way there. But where are we meanwhile? RIght now, in fact? That, I think, is the question.Paul Williams wrote: What will become of me?
I began to see that if Buddhism were correct then unless I attained enlightenment (nirvana) or something like it in this life, where the whole cycle of rebirth would finally come to a complete end, I would have no hope.
Nice call.Karma Dorje wrote:Hope is an intense form of suffering that keeps you from appreciating the current moment and makes you look for something better. The whole point of the path is to drop all fictional narratives whatsoever. Including the one about you not being enlightened. How is that not as positive a message as can be imagined?
I know you can leave a religion without going into a state of Organ Rejection. I myself ceased to believe in a God and therefore Christianity during my catechism class is taught by my Lutheran pastor. When I pointed out that according to his explanation all the people who lived in the Americas after Jesus came to earth and up to the time the Spanish landed were Condemned to go to hell he said simply, “I can't answer your question, I wrestle with that.” That was his honest if unsatisfactory answer too much that I asked. What makes my case unusual I guess is that I always had a great respect for him as a man and his integrity as a person who believed in his kind of spirituality. His wife and he were upright people and they were consistent between what they said and did. Because he was serious about his theology he was fired by our congregation who brought in a boisterous fellow with a folk guitar that he seduced the teenagers with. He wanted to be a pal with everyone and he was glad to spend the rather wealthy congregation's funds on endless bell tower and parking lot projects. In other words he knew what he was hired to do. Pastor Mays on the other hand wanted to talk about the rather grumpier parts of the religion, the part where you drew a ladder on the chalkboard between man and God and then dramatically erased the middle of the ladder. But I understood what he was trying to say about faith and not imposing your demands on God's Ways and Means. So I ended my relationship with theology but not my respect for an intellectually upright believer.'The final goal is essentially communal, for the Christian vision of history is as a love-song, the love between God and his people.'
Thanksuan wrote:I was watching the documentary Yogis of Tibet and ran across this 3 parter on Milarepa. I'm not usually moved by these kind of things, and I already knew the life story of Milarepa, but for some reason, this had a profound impact on me.Feathers wrote:Uan, could you link any of the things you have been reading/watching on Milarepa?
Very grateful for the offered movie-teaching. Wow! It is said that faith and devotion; the nonconceptual magic is actually unifying mind with the Master, revealing true nature.uan wrote:I was watching the documentary Yogis of Tibet and ran across this 3 parter on Milarepa. I'm not usually moved by these kind of things, and I already knew the life story of Milarepa, but for some reason, this had a profound impact on me.Feathers wrote:Uan, could you link any of the things you have been reading/watching on Milarepa?
Milarepa Parts 1-3:
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fumc3JStt4k
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TEYjEUu6B0
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAoCeZrskYg
Here's what Milarepa said on his initial realization (from the website: http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Milarepa/Milarepa.htm):
The last paragraph is very interesting. When people talk about the finger pointing towards the moon and that we shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon, what often happens is that is exactly what we are doing when we use that phrase. We know "Voidness" is the finger and not the moon. But we often think the definition of "Voidness" (or Emptiness, or no-self, or karma, or ego clinging, etc.) is the moon. But the definitions themselves are still the fingers. Understanding the definition is still just the finger pointing to the moon. The moon is still just a finger. Inherent in the language is that there is a moon or "thing" out there. But it's inside each of us. And it's not a thing or an it. As Milarepa points out, "it" is a realization and it's beyond words.Milarepa's Initial Realizations
I have understood this body of mine to be the product of ignorance, composed of flesh and blood and lit up by the perceptive power of consciousness. To those fortunate ones who long for emancipation it may be the great vessel by which they may procure Freedom. But to the unfortunates who only sin, it may be the guide to lower and miserable states of existence. This our life is the boundary mark whence one may take an upward or downward path. Our present time is a most precious time, wherein each of us must decide, in one way or other, for lasting good or lasting ill.
One who aims only at his own individual peace and happiness adopts the lower path (Hinayana), but he who devotes the merits of his love and compassion to the cause of others belongs to the higher path (Mahayana).
In meditating on the Final Goal, one has to discover the non-existence of the personal Ego, and therefore the fallacy that it exists (i.e. because everything in the universe with name and form is basically illusory in nature)
To realize the state of non-existence of the personal ego, the mind must be kept in quiescence. In that state, thoughts, ideas, and cognition cease and the mind (awareness) passes into a state of perfect tranquility so that days, months, and years may pass without the person perceiving it; thus the passage of time has to be marked for him by others.
The visions of the forms of the Deities which appear in meditation are merely signs attending the perseverance in meditation. They have no intrinsic worth or value in themselves.
All the efforts put forth during this path must be made in a spirit of compassion with the aim of dedicating the merit of one's efforts to the Universal Good. There is a need of mentally praying and wishing for blessings on others so earnestly that one's mind processes also transcend thought.
Just as the mere name of food does not satisfy the appetite of a hungry person but he must eat food, so also a man who would learn about the Voidness (i.e. Universal Awareness) must meditate so as to realize it, not just learn of its definition.
Here's a powerful excerpt of Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche talking about "it" from the film Yogis of Tibet http://youtu.be/kqSExkgZ6tw . Watching him is still "a finger pointing toward the moon" but it's a very instructive finger.