Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Anders »

Williams' 'defection' seems fairly straightforward to me. He has correctly analysed the implications of rebirth and non-self. And from this concluded that he does not want to live in a universe where this could be true. "I want to believe" seems to be the driving force here.

Whether that is good or bad or whatever is neither here nor there. I hope he finds greater fulfilment in Christianity than he could find in Buddhism.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
lojong1
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:57 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by lojong1 »

Anders wrote:Williams has correctly analysed the implications of rebirth and non-self.
:jawdrop:
User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1410
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Karma Dorje »

Look, the man has clearly suffered some sort of blunt force head trauma. The only proper response from Buddhists to his conversion is obviously compassion.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Simon E. »

For me one of the most interesting aspects of the whole thing is the degree to which it clearly gets under the skin of some people. Its almost as though for some its a personal slight.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Wayfarer »

It didn't get under my skin. What struck me is the way that two people can read something so differently. Williams writes a great textbook on Mahayana but seems to have this pathological fear of being reborn as a cockroach. I just don't understand how he could come to that view. As a student of Buddhist meditation, this is not something that has ever struck me as remotely possible. Besides, there are fates worse than death iin Catholic soterioligy too.

Hey I'm with that maverick evangelical pastor who wrote a book called Love Wins. At the end of the day compassion Is the only thing that counts. Whatever brings you closer to it is valuable. So it doesn't bother me what you call it or how you conceive of it. As it happens Buddhism has done that for me, but I am sure the Buddhist approach is to counsel people to go with what they really feel passionate about.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1410
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Karma Dorje »

Simon E. wrote:For me one of the most interesting aspects of the whole thing is the degree to which it clearly gets under the skin of some people. Its almost as though for some its a personal slight.
I don't get the sense that the man converting gets under people's skin. I think what does is that when a perceived scholar markets such puerile interpretations of something he should know very well contrasting it with an equally one-dimensional understanding of Catholicism, it's shocking in exactly the same way as our recent discussion of Kennard Lipman. One assumes from his work that he knew what he was talking about and this book makes a strong case to the contrary. Whether it's head trauma, aneurysm or early onset Alzheimer's is immaterial.

If you actually read the man's arguments it's mirth-inducing, not aggravating. There are good reasons for being a Buddhist and good reasons for being a Catholic. Williams has managed to successfully skirt both.
Last edited by Karma Dorje on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Simon E. »

Hmmm.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Anders
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Anders »

lojong1 wrote:
Anders wrote:Williams has correctly analysed the implications of rebirth and non-self.
:jawdrop:
What he says about rebirth is exactly true of the Buddhist model. It is indeed the end of any imagined 'me'.
jeeprs wrote:It didn't get under my skin. What struck me is the way that two people can read something so differently. Williams writes a great textbook on Mahayana but seems to have this pathological fear of being reborn as a cockroach. I just don't understand how he could come to that view. As a student of Buddhist meditation, this is not something that has ever struck me as remotely possible. Besides, there are fates worse than death iin Catholic soterioligy too.

That is not what I got from what he wrote. Rather, it seems his concern with Buddhism is that He, Paul Williams, though reborn, will not be reborn as a continuous entity. The fear, it seems rather, is fear of not enjoying a lasting self.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by futerko »

Anders wrote:...will not be reborn as a continuous entity.
Although that's probably a plus if you are reborn as a cockroach!
User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1410
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Karma Dorje »

Anders wrote: That is not what I got from what he wrote. Rather, it seems his concern with Buddhism is that He, Paul Williams, though reborn, will not be reborn as a continuous entity. The fear, it seems rather, is fear of not enjoying a lasting self.
But what is completely missed is the understanding that the so-called entity "Paul Williams" is a completely illusory fiction in the first place, hence this is really an ostrich's response. He has to completely ignore all of the arguments against self-entity in order to cling to this notion. I am gobsmacked that he can spend so much time thinking about these things without generating an iota of realization of anatma.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
User avatar
Tom
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:12 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Tom »

Anders wrote:Williams' 'defection' seems fairly straightforward to me. He has correctly analysed the implications of rebirth and non-self. And from this concluded that he does not want to live in a universe where this could be true. "I want to believe" seems to be the driving force here.
:good: ... I get a similar impression that his decision boiled down to a question of faith and preference...also I think his critique of Santideva's position is quite telling with regards to not only his problem with the status of persons in Buddhism but also it having a convincing argument for the cultivation of virtues such as compassion.
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Wayfarer »

Anders wrote:That is not what I got from what he wrote. Rather, it seems his concern with Buddhism is that He, Paul Williams, though reborn, will not be reborn as a continuous entity. The fear, it seems rather, is fear of not enjoying a lasting self.
But even in the Christian teaching, the 'lasting self' is precisely what has to be relinquished, given up. The inner meaning of both traditions is the same on that point. "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for Me will find it." Matt 16:25. 'I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.' Gal 2:20.

It is really not that different to the inner mening of renunciation.

I think Prof Williams didn't really get to that breakthrough moment of realising emptiness. Accordingly he is still thinking on the conceptual, discriminative level and evaluating ideas in symbolic terms, and in terms of belief rather than direct perception. I'm not saying there's anything the matter with that, and as others have said - I don't want to say that I am looking down on that kind of perception - I can only wish him happiness. But that is the only way I can evaluate his statements.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
uan
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by uan »

jeeprs wrote:[Accordingly he is still thinking on the conceptual, discriminative level and evaluating ideas in symbolic terms, and in terms of belief rather than direct perception.
I'm curious at which stage on the path, or Bhumi, do we give this up?
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Wayfarer »

In my experience, not so much 'giving up' as 'seeing through'. This is not to say that symbolic understanding is not important in its own way. But, recall the 'finger point at the moon'.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
uan
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by uan »

So then, at what stage do we "see through"? Even the "moon" is still a finger until we actually "see through" or experience that state directly.
User avatar
Konchog1
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Konchog1 »

uan wrote:
jeeprs wrote:[Accordingly he is still thinking on the conceptual, discriminative level and evaluating ideas in symbolic terms, and in terms of belief rather than direct perception.
I'm curious at which stage on the path, or Bhumi, do we give this up?
The First Bhumi which is gained on the path of seeing
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Greg
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:42 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Greg »

He mentions another reason in his book which hasn't come up yet: he feels that Buddhism doesn't adequately answer the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" He writes that he finds the idea of a Creator to be a satisfying answer to that question. But (strangely to me) he causally waves of the question of why is there a Creator rather than no Creator. He seems happy to just go with a "turtles all the way down" outlook.

He also has a long passage where he outlines why he thinks it is very unlikely that the gospels were falsified, so therefore they must be true. That line of thinking was even more surprising to me, coming from a respected academic, because it was so amateurish.
User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Greg wrote:... he feels that Buddhism doesn't adequately answer the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
That is indeed the most fundamental question of life. Perhaps the reason some here are still musing about Mr. Williams is that they haven't answered it yet to their own satisfaction.

It is the most fundamental, but perhaps not the most urgent question, however. Other far more urgent questions exist such as - there are billions of mouths to feed, and how do we do that? Perhaps we can learn something from others about approaching such urgent questions also. The great emergency of becoming a cockroach is perhaps even less important than the great emergency of the world's pain.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Greg wrote:... he feels that Buddhism doesn't adequately answer the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?"
That is indeed the most fundamental question of life. Perhaps the reason some here are still musing about Mr. Williams is that they haven't answered it yet to their own satisfaction.
From "Day By Day With Bhagavan", p. 154:
A visitor asked Bhagavan, “How has srishti (creation)
come about? Some say it is due to karma. Others say it is the
Lord’s lila or sport. What is the truth?”
Bhagavan: Various accounts are given in books. But is
there creation? Only if there is creation, we have to explain
how it came about. All that, we may not know. But that we
exist now is certain. Why not know the ‘I’ and the present and
then see if there is a creation?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
gordtheseeker
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Buddhist Scholar Paul Williams Conversion to Catholicism

Post by gordtheseeker »

Anders wrote:Williams' 'defection' seems fairly straightforward to me. He has correctly analysed the implications of rebirth and non-self. And from this concluded that he does not want to live in a universe where this could be true. "I want to believe" seems to be the driving force here.

Whether that is good or bad or whatever is neither here nor there. I hope he finds greater fulfilment in Christianity than he could find in Buddhism.
Good points. As a newcomer to Buddhism I seem to have had the opposite experience. I was a Christian for many years and found I couldn't come to terms with the idea of 'heaven'. I just couldn't ever totally have faith in that. It was also one of my greatest fears that there wouldn't be a heaven or conscious afterlife. When I finally confronted this fear and accepted/dealt with it, it was a huge weight of my shoulders and it then lead me to Buddhism which seemed to make sense and gave me a peace (at least so far) that I lacked before.
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”