World must go vege.

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World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:48 pm

Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists

Water scarcity's effect on food production means radical steps will be needed to feed population expected to reach 9bn by 2050


http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-develo ... etarianism

Interesting article. This is something humanity as a whole must address and soon.

Take for example that you need something like 14 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilogram of beef. You could feed a lot more people with the grain than with the beef.

However, meat consumption is rising in many countries (especially places in Asia where increased wealth means increased meat consumption). In countries like Taiwan and Japan meat was an occasional luxury, but now people eat meat three meals a day.

Leading water scientists have issued one of the sternest warnings yet about global food supplies, saying that the world's population may have to switch almost completely to a vegetarian diet over the next 40 years to avoid catastrophic shortages.


Whether this happens or not remains to be seen (I doubt it will).
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:58 pm

Huseng wrote:Take for example that you need something like 14 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilogram of beef. You could feed a lot more people with the grain than with the beef.


You do realize of course that steers do not naturally eat grain (corn)?

Grass fed (i.e.natural) beef does not require any grain at all. The solution to food shortages is decentralized intensive small farming.

M
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Nemo » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:39 pm

40% of corn in the USA is used to make ethanol fuel. That is 1,537,500,000,000 pounds of corn. Enough to feed 1,404,109,589 people a pound of corn three times a day. This percentage will continue to grow by legal mandate. Canada pays over 200 million a year in subsidies in a similar program IIRC. If we stopped using food for fuel we have enough already. These programs have made corn too expensive for Mexicans(ironic as corn comes from and is the main staple of Mexico) who then buy rice. Rice goes up in price and people start starving. I think the powers that be are fine with starving a few hundred million to death by the end of the decade. Going veg is irrelevant if all the extra food is being burned in SUV's.

If you want to make things better you have to grapple with the Great Taboo. Free Market Capitalism. If global capital has no moral constraints the point is moot. Starving people with no money never appear on a corporations bottom line.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:40 pm

Nemo wrote:40% of corn in the USA is used to make ethanol fuel. That is 1,537,500,000,000 pounds of corn. Enough to feed 1,404,109,589 people a pound of corn three times a day. This percentage will continue to grow by legal mandate. Canada pays over 200 million a year in subsidies in a similar program IIRC. If we stopped using food for fuel we have enough already. These programs have made corn too expensive for Mexicans(ironic as corn comes from and is the main staple of Mexico) who then buy rice. Rice goes up in price and people start starving. I think the powers that be are fine with starving a few hundred million to death by the end of the decade. Going veg is irrelevant if all the extra food i being burned in SUV's.

If you want to make things better you have to grapple with the Great Taboo. Free Market Capitalism. If global capital has no moral constraints the point is moot. Starving people with no money never appear on a corporations bottom line.


:good:
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:48 pm

Nemo wrote:If you want to make things better you have to grapple with the Great Taboo. Free Market Capitalism. If global capital has no moral constraints the point is moot. Starving people with no money never appear on a corporations bottom line.

Your on the right path Nemo, you just need to stick around for roughtly 400 more years to see it fully actualized. In the meantime, the world is working towards that goal. But the planets turn slow. We will continue to see advances in that direction, however, jumping the gun destabalizes things just as much as doing nothing does. We have to work with time, we live within time, and that is OK.

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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Dave The Seeker » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grass fed (i.e.natural) beef does not require any grain at all. The solution to food shortages is decentralized intensive small farming.

M


I agree with you on this point, but the acres needed to produce beef is pretty significant. One must have enough acres to rotational graze as the previously grazed pasture recovers. As well as for us in the north, where there is winter, a supply of food stuffs to accommodate the months of no growing.
Also the weather plays a significant role as well. This year has shown the proof of that with the drought like conditions all over the US. Without proper water there will be no grass to graze on.

We'll see how the beef prices soar soon. As I know many feed lots that are reducing their animal count due to grain prices going through the roof right now, and still climbing. As well as hay, highest prices in over 10 years, and other sources of fodder not doing well because of weather and the fuel costs to get these products to the feed lot.
Beef is becoming too expensive to produce. The cost in the market goes up, but the producers price barely sees an increase.


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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:15 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grass fed (i.e.natural) beef does not require any grain at all. The solution to food shortages is decentralized intensive small farming.

M


I agree with you on this point, but the acres needed to produce beef is pretty significant. One must have enough acres to rotational graze as the previously grazed pasture recovers. As well as for us in the north, where there is winter, a supply of food stuffs to accommodate the months of no growing.
Also the weather plays a significant role as well. This year has shown the proof of that with the drought like conditions all over the US. Without proper water there will be no grass to graze on.

We'll see how the beef prices soar soon. As I know many feed lots that are reducing their animal count due to grain prices going through the roof right now, and still climbing. As well as hay, highest prices in over 10 years, and other sources of fodder not doing well because of weather and the fuel costs to get these products to the feed lot.
Beef is becoming too expensive to produce. The cost in the market goes up, but the producers price barely sees an increase.



Such are the perils of farming. But the gross misuse of industrial agriculture just make it all worse and more perilous.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Dave The Seeker » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:24 pm

how true
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby futerko » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:24 pm

Apparently "entomophagy is the future" - insects are the new beef!!!
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby bunny » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:34 pm

When I lived in Toronto for 8 weeks I was vegetarian because I couldn't afford meat. I went back to meat when I came back, but am a vegetarian again now.

Same over here in regards to prices of meat, it's high and a lot of people can't afford it.

futerko wrote:Apparently "entomophagy is the future" - insects are the new beef!!!


futerko: ewwwww!
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby viniketa » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:01 pm

futerko wrote:Apparently "entomophagy is the future" - insects are the new beef!!!


Makes the answer to "Where's the beef?" kinda frightening... :shock:

Malcolm wrote:The solution to food shortages is decentralized intensive small farming.


To the extent that this is geographically possible, it helps. But not all locations are suitable.

The answer to all kinds of shortages (including more decentralized intensive small farming) is financial system reform. Investors who are seeking high-yield ROI won't invest in family or community production solutions. "Business" and its investors are risk adverse. They prefer to pass the cost of risk on to the consumer.

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Re: World must go vege.

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:02 pm

Nemo wrote:40% of corn in the USA is used to make ethanol fuel. That is 1,537,500,000,000 pounds of corn. Enough to feed 1,404,109,589 people a pound of corn three times a day. This percentage will continue to grow by legal mandate. Canada pays over 200 million a year in subsidies in a similar program IIRC. If we stopped using food for fuel we have enough already. These programs have made corn too expensive for Mexicans(ironic as corn comes from and is the main staple of Mexico) who then buy rice. Rice goes up in price and people start starving. I think the powers that be are fine with starving a few hundred million to death by the end of the decade. Going veg is irrelevant if all the extra food is being burned in SUV's.

If you want to make things better you have to grapple with the Great Taboo. Free Market Capitalism. If global capital has no moral constraints the point is moot. Starving people with no money never appear on a corporations bottom line.


Good posting indeed.

Also, it's a post that shows the power and the glory of properly used statistics.

@bunny:

Insects are actually quite tasty, some of them at least.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby bunny » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:25 pm

treehuggingoctopus: I've never tried insects nor will I ever. I take your word for it.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby seeker242 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:24 pm

Huseng wrote:
Leading water scientists have issued one of the sternest warnings yet about global food supplies, saying that the world's population may have to switch almost completely to a vegetarian diet over the next 40 years to avoid catastrophic shortages.


Whether this happens or not remains to be seen (I doubt it will).


It will probably happen, after a catastrophe forces it to happen... :(
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:09 am

Malcolm wrote:
Huseng wrote:Take for example that you need something like 14 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilogram of beef. You could feed a lot more people with the grain than with the beef.


You do realize of course that steers do not naturally eat grain (corn)?

Grass fed (i.e.natural) beef does not require any grain at all. The solution to food shortages is decentralized intensive small farming.

M


That is how my grandfather raised his cattle -- vast expanses of prairie pastures. They wandered from one end to another.

However, that was rural Saskatchewan and not a country like China or Indonesia.

The other thing is the methane gas the cows produce is having an effect on the atmosphere. Meat also requires a lot of water to produce.

If people want to eat meat I cannot stop them, but the sheer quantity of meat being produced and consumed in the world is alarming. We could feed a lot more people if we didn't produce so much meat. Our freshwater supplies also need to be conserved.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Nemo » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:20 am

With over two trillion pounds of food being burned in vehicles every year the amount fed to animals is almost a moot point.

In Asia potable water is rare. California has huge problems finding water. But this is a regional environmental issue. In Ontario we have 20% of the world's fresh water for 0.18% of the population. Yet by law I am forced to get a low flow toilet. Same thing with incandescent bulbs here. In winter these easy to manufacture mercury free bulbs produce heat which I need because it is frickin freezing up here. There is no wasted energy 8 months a year. In my region forcing house builders to make all new walls r40(thermal resistance) instead of r20 would do infinitely more for the environment and the planet. Some issues are not one size fits all. It makes environmentalists look over zealous and not to be taken seriously.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:21 am

Nemo wrote:With over two trillion pounds of food being burned in vehicles every year the amount fed to animals is almost a moot point.


It'll probably increase as time goes on and the energy on return ratio for oil plummets.
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby KeithBC » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:46 am

Lots of true words spoken on this thread. Unfortunately, against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain. Those societies that are pushing us over the brink of catastrophe will not change their ways until after the catastrophe.

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Re: World must go vege.

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:04 pm

I find it somewhat interesting and perhaps ironic that some posters who advocate socialist/communist/leftist political ideologies feel that there is not much of a problem or that it is acceptable to eat meat from an environmental point.

I would think that the 'compassionate' ideas found in leftist thinking; that we are all in this world together and should help each other out and make the world a better place, would lead to thinking that this is a crucial matter and we should adopt agriculture policies more in line with preventing such catastrophes to the world, pollution, global warming, etc. and the best move toward that is one more towards a vegan diet.

Just sayin' :stirthepot: Fire away when ready. :tongue:
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Re: World must go vege.

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:29 pm

David N. Snyder wrote: it is acceptable to eat meat from an environmental point.


That is not what anyone is saying. It is not acceptable to eat grain fed meat.

It is also not necessary, or would not be necessary since Goverment regulations in the US, and so called food safety laws (which are actually unsafe) make it impossible for farmers to butcher steers, fowl and so on on their farms.

The Food Gestapo in the USA make alternatives to large-scale feedlot etc., production prohibitive.

Food production is one area where we need much, much less regulation than what is currently in place, and smarter, scalable regulation so that small producers are not regulated out of entering the market.

M
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