Ex-Bon Forum Grievances

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Ex-Bon Forum Grievances

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Even Namdrol who is very well learned to a certain degree did not have insight into Dzogchen, so he opened that Dzogchen forum to get informed.




For the record, that is not why I opened the Dzogchen forum on E-Sangha.

I opened the Dzogchen forum on E-Sangha because there are practitioners of Dzogchen in Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug, Nyingma and Bon who, at the time seemed to need a place to discuss things separate from the Nyingma forum

The Dzogchen forum was closed because the discussion was becoming completely dominated by people from Dzogchen Community.

The Bon forum was closed primarily because one: the narrative histories of Bon and Buddhism in Tibet are largely incompatible with each other, despite many doctrinal similarities, and two: E-Sangha was a Pan-Buddhist Web site.


The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion. Kalden Yungdrung adhered the point of view that Buddha Tonpa Shenrab was here at the Bon forum, the source of blessings, all written at the Bon sub-forum at E-Sangha i guess 3 years ago?

So we Bonpos including Jean Luc Achard, did decide to open / construct another forum named: Yungdrung Rignga Ling and that was the very reason that this new forum was opened after the closing of the E-Sangha Bon forum.
http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-free.com/

But for some reason the whole E-Sangha did disappear, or was closed.............
Due to (bad) karma?

Mutsog Marro
KY


N
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:08 pm

Go beyond history.
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:15 pm

The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion.


No, this is a false statement -- I never made such claim, and would never make such a claim.

The Bon forum was closed for the reason I stated above.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:08 am

Malcolm wrote:
The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion.


No, this is a false statement -- I never made such claim, and would never make such a claim.

The Bon forum was closed for the reason I stated above.



Here something to refresh your memory:

http://esanghalert.wordpress.com/category/bon-banned/
http://www.openbuddha.com/2008/03/17/e- ... continues/
http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-fre ... -t217.html

It was a long time ago but your ending words regarding the closed Bon forum were that in our Kali Yuga age or time, the Buddha Shakyamuni would be anyway the source of blessings. That was that what i have in mind and nevertheless that you deny it i keep it like that. :applause:

But we did discuss the topic allready at the forum Yungdrung Rignga Ling and here one can smell your sentiment about all what was against Buddhism.
And sure you did lay the foundation for your kind of Buddhism in that context which was ok for you and your E-Sangha club.
Now we see that another wind is blowing but with the same e-sangha fire, so we have to be carefull again and i hope so that history is not repeating again in another jacket / suit. But i have so my doubts.......... :shock:

KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:21 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion.


No, this is a false statement -- I never made such claim, and would never make such a claim.

The Bon forum was closed for the reason I stated above.



Here something to refresh your memory:

http://esanghalert.wordpress.com/category/bon-banned/
http://www.openbuddha.com/2008/03/17/e- ... continues/
http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-fre ... -t217.html



The first link has nothing to do with the closing of the Bon forum. The second link just validates what I said above. The third link I cannot read because you never approved my application to read posts on your forum.

It was a long time ago but your ending words regarding the closed Bon forum were that in our Kali Yuga age or time, the Buddha Shakyamuni would be anyway the source of blessings. That was that what i have in mind and nevertheless that you deny it i keep it like that. :applause:


In this case, I was making a bit of a different point/ The reason there was Buddha's teaching in India is that there was a Buddha. Bon owes a huge debt to Buddha's teaching in terms of texts, theory, etc. But because Bonpos will not acknowledge this, at that time I closed that forum. I realize now that our decision to close the Bon forum at that time for that reason was wrong. It was wrong not because I have changed my mind about history, but because I was not paying respect to your beliefs.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:39 am

quote="Malcolm"]
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The Bon forum was closed at E-Sangha, because the Buddha Shakyamuni would be the only source of blessings regarding Dzogchen according Namdrol' s opinion.


No, this is a false statement -- I never made such claim, and would never make such a claim.

The Bon forum was closed for the reason I stated above.



Here something to refresh your memory:

http://esanghalert.wordpress.com/category/bon-banned/
http://www.openbuddha.com/2008/03/17/e- ... continues/
http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-fre ... -t217.html



The first link has nothing to do with the closing of the Bon forum. The second link just validates what I said above. The third link I cannot read because you never approved my application to read posts on your forum.

It was a long time ago but your ending words regarding the closed Bon forum were that in our Kali Yuga age or time, the Buddha Shakyamuni would be anyway the source of blessings. That was that what i have in mind and nevertheless that you deny it i keep it like that. :applause:


In this case, I was making a bit of a different point/ The reason there was Buddha's teaching in India is that there was a Buddha. Bon owes a huge debt to Buddha's teaching in terms of texts, theory, etc. But because Bonpos will not acknowledge this, at that time I closed that forum. I realize now that our decision to close the Bon forum at that time for that reason was wrong. It was wrong not because I have changed my mind about history, but because I was not paying respect to your beliefs.[/quote]


You can read the whole forum Yungdrung Rignga Ling because i did made you a member recently with your name Malcolm. But sure in case you are member number 668 . I have a difficulty that the front or index page is not vissible to non members. But in case you did register yoursedlf under Malcolm you can follow the link:

http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-fre ... -t217.html

The other links tell something about the hard wind that blew against all that was not Buddhist in the way you did wanted that. Bon did belong to that black group.

By the way if you are not that Malcolm with member number 668 at forum Yungdrung Rignga Ling, then you could register yourself there and take a look at the above mentioned link, if you want and like it of course. It is sure not a must.

KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Virgo » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:22 am

Wasn't Malcolm the same one that initially added that forum, helping Bonpos be recognized as having an authentic path leading to liberation within that community, which was at the time the largest online Buddhist community? And isn't ChNN responsible for defending bonpos and their path just the same? So what exactly is it that you have a beef with KY? Bon teachers taught outside of a Buddhist context, Dzogchen. Later on, Bon Dzogchen grew via a mix with Nyingma (Buddhist influence). Now a teacher says that Dzogchen is beyond Buddhism or Bon and you flip your lid. What is the real problem here?

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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:38 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
The other links tell something about the hard wind that blew against all that was not Buddhist in the way you did wanted that. Bon did belong to that black group.



Actually, everythying in that thread is speculative, i.e., has nothing to do with my actual motivations for closing the Bon forum.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
The other links tell something about the hard wind that blew against all that was not Buddhist in the way you did wanted that. Bon did belong to that black group.



Actually, everythying in that thread is speculative, i.e., has nothing to do with my actual motivations for closing the Bon forum.



At forum Yungdrung Rignga Ling, is precisely that reflected what was going on at E-Sangha, e.g. the closing of that forum.
It does not the matter what your opinion would be, we have there another opinion and this can be watched ate the above and under mentioned link.
Here does count for us the opinion of Jean Luc Achard and others.

What is here speculative that would be your opinion which is not shared at all by us.

Further are our rules (which can be seen at the top of our index page) or TOS based on our bad experience we have had at the former E-Sangha.That does prove finally the whole bad affair we have had with E-Sangha or the administrators and mods. So if this is again speculative then sorry go on with your opinion, but that is never shared by the former members of the Bon forum at E-Sangha.

I can not explain this clearer, but of course i can understand that such critics can never be yours.

But also yes for Bon and no for Bon that is a whole coloured mix from your side, where you do approve Bon matters in the way you like or not.
That is never our way of seeing Bon. :applause:

So i realy do finish here, you your George opinion and we ours. But did you took a look at the forum Yungdrung Rignga Ling link?
http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-fre ... -t217.html

Could we all be wrong? :shock:

KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:46 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:It does not the matter what your opinion would be
KY


But it matters very much what my opinion is, since you are discussing why I acted the way I did.

I know perfectly well why I closed the Bon forum, much better than you, since I was the one who decided it needed to be done.

You can either accept my testimony, or you can continue with your speculations.

M
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:48 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Could we all be wrong? :shock:

KY


When you speculate about my motives for closing the forum, yes you are wrong.

I am not saying that you are wrong about your experience at E-Sangha in general.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:It does not the matter what your opinion would be
KY


But it matters very much what my opinion is, since you are discussing why I acted the way I did.

I know perfectly well why I closed the Bon forum, much better than you, since I was the one who decided it needed to be done.

You can either accept my testimony, or you can continue with your speculations.

M



Sorry, your testimony is not acceptable for me. ;)

So it sure matters for you only, your opinion, that is very clear but not for the other party.
So i go on with my opinion and am not convinced, when i may say so? If to be not convinced would be equal to speculations, well that is up to you.
In my opinion word games.

KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:06 pm

Virgo wrote:Wasn't Malcolm the same one that initially added that forum, helping Bonpos be recognized as having an authentic path leading to liberation within that community, which was at the time the largest online Buddhist community? And isn't ChNN responsible for defending bonpos and their path just the same? So what exactly is it that you have a beef with KY? Bon teachers taught outside of a Buddhist context, Dzogchen. Later on, Bon Dzogchen grew via a mix with Nyingma (Buddhist influence). Now a teacher says that Dzogchen is beyond Buddhism or Bon and you flip your lid. What is the real problem here?

Kevin


Well the Bonpo forum was formed after that Gerry mentioned that the Dalai Lama 14 did decided that Bon was the 5th Tradition.
What has ChNN to do with that Bon forum? I guess that is totaly out of mind to add this Master to this topic to prove the ending or deleting of the Bon forum at E-Sangha.

Well don' t sell your point of view not to me that Nyingma did influence Bon Zhang Zhung Nyengyu. I guess you have to study more Bon before you could adhere to such a position. But you could explain to me why Nyingma did influenced Bon, in such a way that we would be dependent on Nyingma Teachings. :)

What and who is saying that Dzogchen is lifted above all there is, like Bon and Nyingma that is not agreed by me at all.
The only thing i know is that Dzogchen inside Bon does form the fruit or top of our Lineage.

KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Rainbow Body - Why?

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:12 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:It does not the matter what your opinion would be
KY


But it matters very much what my opinion is, since you are discussing why I acted the way I did.

I know perfectly well why I closed the Bon forum, much better than you, since I was the one who decided it needed to be done.

You can either accept my testimony, or you can continue with your speculations.

M



Sorry, your testimony is not acceptable for me. ;)

So it sure matters for you only, your opinion, that is very clear but not for the other party.
So i go on with my opinion and am not convinced, when i may say so? If to be not convinced would be equal to speculations, well that is up to you.
In my opinion word games.

KY


So what were my motivations for closing the Bon forum again? Just so we are clear.

(And is it really necessary to rehash something that happened on E-Sangha years ago, and something which I acknowledge was wrong, regardless of my motivations?)
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ex-Bon Forum Grievances

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:18 pm

Let's let bygones be bygones, people.

Malcolm has stated his reasons for doing what he did. There is no need in dragging out grievances in public about a forum decision that was made years ago on a now defunct forum.

Such grievances are best addressed in private correspondence given that it isn't a public issue anymore.
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