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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:00 am 
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If we accept tertons and teachings based on pure visions, why not the channeled teachings ?
http://organiccosmos.ning.com/profiles/blogs/channeled-message-from-buddha-through-elizabeth-trutwin

According to Buddha (in Kalama sutta and elsewhere) we should not depend on authority, but we should depend on our own reason, our own capability of judgement.
In practice buddhism seems to be only about authority, if lama so and so says something then it has to be accepted by everyone, we must be good boys and girls.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:19 am 
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We can consider that most of the Mahayana sutras are effectively the product of people channeling a Buddha. The prajnaparamita sutra is even quite explicit that Subhuti teaches empowered by the might of the Buddha. And there are sutras in the Chinese canon whose historical origins are known - they were composed by unlearned laypeople who suddenly began reciting new and unheard sutras and were considered revelatory. So the concept is not a new one.

That doesn't mean any old self-proclaimed channeller will get accepted. The usual standards for what constitutes buddhavacana apply. This one looks like just another cheap money making scheme.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:59 am 
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Well, let's not forget that we have these...
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
"If, Bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of Me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should not give way to resentment, displeasure, or animosity against them in your heart.

For if you were to become angry or upset in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.
If you were to become angry or upset when others speak in dispraise of us, would you be able to recognize whether their statements are rightly or wrongly spoken?"
"Certainly not, Lord."

"If, Bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of Me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as false, saying: 'For such and such a reason this is false, this is untrue, there is no such thing in us, this is not found among us.'

"And if, bhikkhus, others speak in praise of Me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should not give way to jubilation, joy, and exultation in your heart.

For if you were to become jubilant, joyful, and exultant in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.

If others speak in praise of Me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should acknowledge what is fact as fact, saying: 'For such and such a reason this is a fact, this is true, there is such a thing in us, this is found among us.'
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two?
He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata.
And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata.
These are two who slander the Tathagata."
Quote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
And there the Blessed One addressed the Bhikkhus, saying:
"Now, Bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the Four Great References. Listen and pay heed to My words."
And those Bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord."

Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu might speak:
'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or:
'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or:
'In an abode of such and such a name live several Bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or:
'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single Bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, Bhikkhus, the declaration of such a Bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn.
Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline.

If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus:
'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that Bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, Bhikkhus, you should reject it.

But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that Bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, Bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference.

These, Bhikkhus, are the Four Great references for you to preserve."

The Four Reliances

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According to Buddha (in Kalama sutta and elsewhere) we should not depend on authority, but we should depend on our own reason, our own capability of judgement....

Not really. In the list of 'don't go bys', it also includes 'logical conjecture...agreement through pondering views, by probability, by thought' and don't forget how the counsel of the 'wise' comes in as well as the consideration of skillful/unskillful actions...
A Look at the Kalama Sutta

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:00 am 
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I agree with what Anders said.

Of course, it depends if you accept the Kalama Sutta as a true written record, by someone anonymous, of what Shakyamuni taught - so the argument seems circular.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Aemilius wrote:
If we accept tertons and teachings based on pure visions, why not the channeled teachings ?
http://organiccosmos.ning.com/profiles/blogs/channeled-message-from-buddha-through-elizabeth-trutwin

According to Buddha (in Kalama sutta and elsewhere) we should not depend on authority, but we should depend on our own reason, our own capability of judgement.
In practice buddhism seems to be only about authority, if lama so and so says something then it has to be accepted by everyone, we must be good boys and girls.



"You cling to the programming from inside the Matrix."

Seriously?

N

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:32 pm 
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who you jivin' with that Kosmic Debris?

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An Invitation: I received this message April 19th and a few have benefited from it and I would like to continue to offer it. I charge $101 for this service. For a booking you may email me at eltrutwin@gmail.com It is amazing what comes through. From Lord Sananda, the Higher Self of Jesus.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:33 pm 
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:crazy:


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:41 pm 
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I've been researching this for a while. Here's the pattern I see:

1. Someone with time on his or her hands invents a series of criteria by which a right proper authority can be recognized: stages of development, say, or a mystical connection to a channeled authority.

2. Same someone then builds a public persona that coincides with those criteria.

3. From this emerges a circular basis for authority: my discourse must be authentic because it comes from an authentic source (me), as legitimized by these criteria; the criteria are, in turn, authorized by my own experience. The reported experience upholds the criteria, while the criteria uphold the validity of the reported experience.

4. Profit!

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Thanks for the hint Jikan, now time to make my fortune..... for the good of mankind, of course :spy:

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:25 pm 
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:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:14 pm 
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plwk wrote:
Well, let's not forget that we have these...


Quote:
According to Buddha (in Kalama sutta and elsewhere) we should not depend on authority, but we should depend on our own reason, our own capability of judgement....

Not really. In the list of 'don't go bys', it also includes 'logical conjecture...agreement through pondering views, by probability, by thought' and don't forget how the counsel of the 'wise' comes in as well as the consideration of skillful/unskillful actions...
A Look at the Kalama Sutta


:good:

Going just by the reasoning and judgment of a deluded mind, infected with massive ignorance, is not that great of an idea IMO. :smile:

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Aemilius wrote:
If we accept tertons and teachings based on pure visions, why not the channeled teachings ?


Because with Pure Visions one could determine if said Visions are from one's 'Inner Buddha' or also if one is actually face to face with an Enlightened Being.

Whereas with channeling/mediumism you're merely letting some entity take control of your mind and body without having any idea if that entity is what it claims it is. This is why H.P. Blavatsky ditched channeling/mediumism and said that it is black magic; because it is only logical that generally speaking Enlightened Beings don't need other's bodies to convey their messages.

The Nechung Oracle for example would be an exception, because he is specifically chosen by Masters to be a designated Oracle.

Better to practice Dream Yoga instead of channeling/mediumism. :idea:

:anjali:


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
If we accept tertons and teachings based on pure visions, why not the channeled teachings ?


Because with Pure Visions one could determine if said Visions are from one's 'Inner Buddha' or also if one is actually face to face with an Enlightened Being.

Whereas with channeling/mediumism you're merely letting some entity take control of your mind and body without having any idea if that entity is what it claims it is. This is why H.P. Blavatsky ditched channeling/mediumism and said that it is black magic; because it is only logical that generally speaking Enlightened Beings don't need other's bodies to convey their messages.

The Nechung Oracle for example would be an exception, because he is specifically chosen by Masters to be a designated Oracle.

Better to practice Dream Yoga instead of channeling/mediumism. :idea:

:anjali:



I'm not sure I understood.

The fact that HHDL has chosen one Oracle as a personal preference, and promoted him as a State advisor, surely doesn't make that Oracle an Enlightened Being.

Or are you saying that Nechung is the only non-Enlightened being to be trusted?

I'm not being provocative - it just seems a strange example to quote, and I may be a bit slow in understanding why. _/\_

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:51 pm 
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An Invitation: I received this message April 19th and a few have benefited from it and I would like to continue to offer it. I charge $101 for this service. For a booking you may email me at eltrutwin@gmail.com It is amazing what comes through. From Lord Sananda, the Higher Self of Jesus.
I reckon the money would probably be better spent on cheap booze and sexual partners.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Every single sentient being "channels" the Buddha. Even self absorbed neurotic nerds going through a mid life crisis compensating for feelings of inadequacy by making a website. ;)

Some mirrors are just a bit more polished than others.


Quote:
Barack Obama is here representing both the Sirian Council of Nine and also, on assignment from the Great Central Sun (Alcyone) and has assistance and protection by 16 million galactic-humans working for KOS and the 4 Million man world-wide militia. Their task has been to coordinate the removal of the 40-50'tall dragons (renegade Annunaki) working in government, and in various powerful roles around the Planet.


The CIA was originally formed as an Executive Order, to deal with the negative extraterrestrials making Treaties with the U.S. Government. Now we have seen this organization searching for StarGates, committing War Crimes, and Blackwater Ops designed to control Earth. There are also reptilian renegades living within vast caverns and underground areas deep within the Planet these adepts have worked to remove. KOS works with Ashtar at the AICO. As we Star Seeds unite with our Mighty I AM presences those communications conduits are automatically 'involved' and will gradually become more conscious, stronger and directly connected with Source Intelligence/All That Is (The Great Eye of Ra, This Represents The Law of One).
'

What garbage. I was in the Army. Everyone knows the Sirian Council was eradicated by the reptiloids centuries ago.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
The fact that HHDL has chosen one Oracle as a personal preference, and promoted him as a State advisor, surely doesn't make that Oracle an Enlightened Being.


Maybe, maybe not; but it does however make the Nechung Oracle an Oracle chosen by an authentic lineage.

Whether one is concerned with Vajrayana's teachings regarding lineage and transmission or not, of course it's up to them if they want to invite entities—who claim to be Lord Sananda the Higher Self of Jesus—to enter and possess their mind-body aggregates (but I agree with Gregkavarnos; well, depending on what kind of cheap booze and sexual partners we're talking about here ;) ).

It's funny how a lot new age-ish channelers seem to take Theosophy as their basis, apparently without knowing that all the main Theosophists themselves warned against the practice of mediumism, spiritualism, channeling, spiritism, etc.

Again, Dream Yoga—although not as easy as channeling seances—would be a more legit method for contacting authentic Masters. :anjali:


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:28 am 
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The most important part of that link is summarized here:

Code:
An Invitation: I received this message April 19th and a few have benefited from it and I would like to continue to offer it. I charge $101 for this service. For a booking you may email me at BLAH BLAH BLAH It is amazing what comes through. From Lord Sananda, the Higher Self of Jesus.



Yeah.... No.

Kalama sutta engaged......

and the verdict is..... Bulldust!


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:23 am 
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Anders Honore wrote:
We can consider that most of the Mahayana sutras are effectively the product of people channeling a Buddha. The prajnaparamita sutra is even quite explicit that Subhuti teaches empowered by the might of the Buddha. And there are sutras in the Chinese canon whose historical origins are known - they were composed by unlearned laypeople who suddenly began reciting new and unheard sutras and were considered revelatory. So the concept is not a new one.

That doesn't mean any old self-proclaimed channeller will get accepted. The usual standards for what constitutes buddhavacana apply. This one looks like just another cheap money making scheme.


I don't agree with that regarding the origin Mahayana. The Diamond sutra is quite explicit that Subhuti is in the presence of the Buddha.
I'm certain that the whole of Sravakayana is a later interpolation produced by the indian society. When they realized that the Guy ( Buddha) was still famous outside Indian subcontinent, they then decided to make their own new version of it. First they had done an enormous work at destroying it, but now they were confronted that it (Dharma) still existed elsewhere, so they had to save their face and make it seem that they were honorable people for the world.
In the Mahayana there are very old things from the original period, that had survived in unknown places.
The Mahayana had existed "underground", then Nagarjuna, and few others before and after him, brought it to light, and made it public reality.
For example the whole of the Sakyan people were killed, according to sources, after the Parinirvana of Shakyamuni.
The movement to destroy the Mahayana is still active and powerful, it makes things like the new edition of Blue Annals, where no Mahayana is mentioned when describing the life Nagarjuna, and other things like that. I think they have lots of money and publicity, and with that they have bought Motilal Banarisdass into their scheme of annihilating the Mahayana and the Mahayana Nagarjuna.

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:34 am 
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Excellent! Buddhist conspiracy theories! Just what was missing from my life.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:09 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Excellent! Buddhist conspiracy theories! Just what was missing from my life.


You are wellcome to the real world!

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