Nasreddīn Hodja

[gregkavarnos]

The persecution is still happening: in Irak after the fall of Saddam they soon whipped and jailed about one hundred sufis, and their lawyers too!!

In English, when one says "historically" it also includes the current historic epoch, like ongoing history.

Why do we trust the "lineage"? How can we be sure about it?

We cannot be 100% sure about anything, BUT when for 8 Centuries Sufi Dervishes have been "whirling" counterclockwise and then Rajneesh and his adherents, to make a buck by appearing radical and revolutionary for naieve westerners, tell people to spin clockwise, well...

You nevertheless accept innovation in matters spiritual, don't you? If that is old enough, like the Buddha.

No. Innovation in spiritual matters must serve the purpose of spiritual development. Most so-called "innovators" are merely out to make a grand show of their individuality and greatness (and to make a quick buck). Their theories and practices normally die out quite quickly and/or are confined to small irrelevant groups. They die out quickly because they are not based on Vajra Wisdom, they are confined to small inbred groups because the majority of people out there, through their relative or common wisdom, easily see that they are a crock of doo-doo.

The tales that are ascribed to Nasreddin Hodja are timeless and have wide popular appeal because they have real, obvious, universal and clearly apparent meaning. Now if somebody tries to cash in on them they will initially have some success, but the fact that they are merely exploiting them will soon become apparent. And then...

And that is the problem with the New Age movement: the personalised exploitation of traditional wisdom for monetary gain and acclaim.

[gregkavarnos]

Carrying weapons was prohibited but Hodja always carried a large curved knife with him. One day he was caught carrying it into the Medrese (theological school). When the guard asked him what he was going to do with it Hodja replied: "I use the knife to scrape off* the mistakes I find in the books."
The guard became irritated and said to Hodja:
"You liar! You don't need such a large knife for that task!"
"Oh my dear sir! It seems you are not aware that sometimes there are such big mistakes in the books, that even this large knife is not big enough to erase them!"
*In Hodjas day they used to use small knives as erasers for printed/written text.

Jambiya.jpg (22.23 KiB) Viewed 407 times

[Aemilius]

I know very little about the whirling dance. Years ago I had a cd of sufi music, on its cover they said that the whirling dance was developed by Jallal-Uddin Rumi, after people had told him that he is not allowed to write anything anymore. So he turned his attention to dance and music. The cd-cover further said that the dancers, all dressed in white, represent the planets. And quite right, the planets turn anticlockwise. The dancers/planets further rotate on a wider circle/ellipsoid that represents the path of the planets.This wider circle also turns anticlockwise. Leader of the dance is dressed in black, he is stationary and represents the Sun. He gives very small, nearly unnoticable signs for the dancers.
The symbolism is very nice, and really quite amazing, if Rumi knew all this two or three hundred years before Copernicus.

Directions "up" and "down" in space are merely human convention. So it may be that Rajneesh was looking at the Solar system from the opposite direction? But then the paths of the planets should also turn clockwise to be true!

[gregkavarnos]

Directions "up" and "down" in space are merely human convention. So it may be that Rajneesh was looking at the Solar system from the opposite direction? But then the paths of the planets should also turn clockwise to be true!

Or maybe Rajneesh had no idea what he was doing because he was not a qualified Sufi master and probably just dabbled in it (like he did with everything else) and added his own "spin" to it just to make a quick buck off ignorant fools without any concern for the effects of what he made people do? Seems more likely to me.

[gregkavarnos]

Hodja went to the pulpit and before he started his sermon he asked the congregation: "Do you know what I will be talking about today?
"No!" answered the congregation.
"If you don't know, then what can I possibly tell you?" he replied and walked away.
The next week, he went to the pulpit and asked the same question.
"Yes, we do!" answered the congregation.
"If you do, then there is nothing more for me to tell you!" said Hodja and walked away again.
The memebrs of the congregation decided that if Hodja asked the same question again, half would answer "Yes!" and the other half of the congregation would answer "No!"
The following week Hodja went to the pulpit and asked the same question a third time. The congregation responded just as they had decided, half of them said "Yes, we do!" and the other half responded "No, we don't"
"In that case," said Hodja "let those who know tell the ones who don't know" and he walked away again.

[gregkavarnos]

Hodja was sitting by the window of his house when he saw a funeral procession approaching from up the street. The relatives of the deceased man were crying and wailing: "Oh, oh oh! You are going to a dark place where there is no light or fire, no food or water!"
Hodja turned to his wife and said: "Quickly! Go out and lock the door, they want to bring the deceased man to our house!"

[greentara]

My dear!
You haven't the feet
for this path --
why struggle?
You've no idea where
the idol's to be found --
what's all this
mystic chat?
What can be done
with quarrelsome
fellow travelers,
boastful
marketplace
morons?
If you were really a lover
you'd see that faith and infidelity
are one...
Oh, what's the use?
nit-picking
about such things
is a hobby for
numb brains.
You are pure spirit.

Hakim Sanai

[Aemilius]

I haven't read anything from Gurdieff or his followers for ages. Having now looked at them, I think that Gurdieff and Oscar Ichazo are both of them true and genuine teachers.
Faith is a personal matter, it is about how you respond to a teaching and to a teacher.
Nasr-Uddin, like Jal-Uddin Rumi, could be connected to the name Uddiyan, i.e. the country of Uddiyana, Oddiyana, or Orgyen.
The figure of Al Addin (Aladdin) in Thousand and One Nights is a propagandistic version of Al Uddin, i.e. the Guru of Uddiyan. It is an islamistic version making fun of the Uddiyan Guru and of tantric buddhism.

[gregkavarnos]

You forgot to mention the UFO's Just to give a well rounded nature to your view.

[gregkavarnos]

During a conversation with Tamerlane, Hodja started bragging about his donkey.
"It is so smart that I can teach it to read!" He said.
"Then go ahead and teach it hoe to read. I give you three months!" Ordered Tamerlane.
Hodja went home and began to train his donkey. He put its feed between the pages of a big book and taught it to turn the pages with its tongue in order to find its feed. Three days before the three month period was over he stopped feeding it.
When he took his donkey to Tamerlane, Hodja asked for a big book and placed the book in front of the donkey. The hungry animal turned the pages of the book one by one with its tongue and since it did not find any feed between the pages it started braying.
Tamerlane carefully observed the donkey and commented:
"This sure is a strange way of reading!"
"What did you expect sir?" Replied Hodja.
"This is exactly how a donkey reads!"

Seems that somebody around here ha been taking reading lessons from Hodjas donkey!

braying donkey.jpg (8.7 KiB) Viewed 315 times

[Jikan]

I haven't read anything from Gurdieff or his followers for ages. Having now looked at them, I think that Gurdieff and Oscar Ichazo are both of them true and genuine teachers.
Faith is a personal matter, it is about how you respond to a teaching and to a teacher.
Nasr-Uddin, like Jal-Uddin Rumi, could be connected to the name Uddiyan, i.e. the country of Uddiyana, Oddiyana, or Orgyen.
The figure of Al Addin (Aladdin) in Thousand and One Nights is a propagandistic version of Al Uddin, i.e. the Guru of Uddiyan. It is an islamistic version making fun of the Uddiyan Guru and of tantric buddhism.

I'm having trouble following you here. Would you please elaborate to show how this is on topic?

unrelated: I suspect that "legominism" is Gurdjieff's attempt to recontextualize terma into his own system (claiming that the legominism of the very saintly Ashiata Shiemash is a essentially a treasure from a very ancient siddha). Not saying G was a terton, but that he was attempting to write like one.

[gregkavarnos]

A foreign scholar and his entourage were passing through Aksehir. The scholar asked to speak with the town's most knowledgeable person. Of course the townsfolk immediately called Nasreddin Hodja. The foreign savant didn't speak Turkish and our Hodja didn't speak any foreign languages, so the two wise men had to communicate with signs, while the others looked on with fascination.

The foreigner, using a stick, drew a large circle on the sand. Nasreddin Hodja took the stick and divided the circle into two. This time the foreigner drew a line perpendicular to the one Hodja drew and the circle was now split into four. He motioned to indicate first the three quarters of the circle, then the remaining quarter. To this, the Hodja made a swirling motion with the stick on the four quarters. Then the foreigner made a bowl shape with two hands side by side, palms up, and wiggled his fingers. Nasreddin Hodja responded by cupping his hands palms down and wiggling his fingers.

When the meeting was over, the members of the foreign scientist's entourage asked him what they have talked about.

`Nasreddin Hodja is really a learned man.' he said. `I told him that the earth was round and he told me that there was equator in the middle of it. I told him that the three quarters of the earth was water and one quarter of it was land. He said that there were undercurrents and winds. I told him that the waters warm up, vaporize and move towards the sky, to that he said that they cool off and come down as rain.'

The people of Aksehir were also curious about how the encounter went. They gathered around the Hodja.

`This stranger has good taste,' the Hodja started to explain. `He said that he wished there was a large tray of baklava. I said that he could only have half of it. He said that the syrup should be made with three parts sugar and one part honey. I agreed, and said that they all had to mix well. Next he suggested that we should cook it on blazing fire. And I added that we should pour crushed nuts on top of it.'

So are we going to talk about Nasreddin Hodja or New Age crackpots?

pistachio nut baclava.png (87.07 KiB) Viewed 288 times

[catmoon]

I don't care, just send me some of that baklava, please.

[Aemilius]

I haven't read anything from Gurdieff or his followers for ages. Having now looked at them, I think that Gurdieff and Oscar Ichazo are both of them true and genuine teachers.
Faith is a personal matter, it is about how you respond to a teaching and to a teacher.
Nasr-Uddin, like Jal-Uddin Rumi, could be connected to the name Uddiyan, i.e. the country of Uddiyana, Oddiyana, or Orgyen.
The figure of Al Addin (Aladdin) in Thousand and One Nights is a propagandistic version of Al Uddin, i.e. the Guru of Uddiyan. It is an islamistic version making fun of the Uddiyan Guru and of tantric buddhism.

I'm having trouble following you here. Would you please elaborate to show how this is on topic?

unrelated: I suspect that "legominism" is Gurdjieff's attempt to recontextualize terma into his own system (claiming that the legominism of the very saintly Ashiata Shiemash is a essentially a treasure from a very ancient siddha). Not saying G was a terton, but that he was attempting to write like one.

Nasreddin Hodja is the turkish name of Mulla Nasruddin, as he is more often known in modern Sufi literature, for example in the books of Idries Shah.
And the rest of the points are also within the category of Sufism, ancient and modern Sufism.

Some people have difficulty in accepting modern manifestations of Sufism. Why can't we accept people of the 1900's to be trained in the tradition of Sufis, if they them selves say so?
A similar question will inevitable bounce back to ourselves, have we not heard it said in full seriousness that Tendai, Mahayana and Vajrayana are not really Buddhism at all ??
I see no reason to doubt the sufism of modern sufis. Sufism is not a merely ethnic religion or an ethnic teaching and tradition. It is universal, and sufis have succeeded in becoming known outside the narrow confines of Islam.
I'm sorry if this is going too far from the sufi message of Mulla Nasruddin. According to Idries Shah the Mulla Nasruddin stories are a subject of serious study in some sufi schools!
And this is still a place for light discussion, is that not so ?

I have never felt Gurdieff to be a Terton. In 1970's, when I read his works, the name "terton" was quite insignificant, a very much unknown term then and therefore without much meaning!

What I meant with "Aladdin" is that before the arising of Islam as a State Religion Buddhism and many of its leading figures were known in the arabic world. And hence they started a process of eradicating everything that was regarded un-islamic, buddhism being one of the worst things they knew. The whole of Thousand and One Nights could be seen as belonging to a program of wiping out every remaining trace of buddhism there still was in the genre of popular stories and folk tales.

[gregkavarnos]

Some people have difficulty in accepting modern manifestations of Sufism. Why can't we accept people of the 1900's to be trained in the tradition of Sufis, if they them selves say so?

If they are trained in Sufism then I have no qualms about accepting that. I mean there are qualified Sufi teachers and organisations in the 21st Century too.

I see no reason to doubt the sufism of modern sufis.

Neither do I, if they are actually Sufis, and not somebody merely trying to capitalise (read make $$$) on Sufi practices.

Sufism is not a merely ethnic religion or an ethnic teaching and tradition.

Didn't say it was. I wouldn't be posting the anecdotes on a BUddhist forum otherwise.

It is universal, and sufis have succeeded in becoming known outside the narrow confines of Islam.

The wisdom aspect of Sufism is universal, the techniques have to be learnt from qualified teachers. Sufism is not confined by Islam, it is defined by and defines Islam.

According to Idries Shah the Mulla Nasruddin stories are a subject of serious study in some sufi schools!
And this is still a place for light discussion, is that not so ?

Light discussion is when you bring in spiritual conspiracy theories and New Age nonsense and not just take it as a fact that Sufism is mystical Islam.

What I meant with "Aladdin" is that before the arising of Islam as a State Religion Buddhism and many of its leading figures were known in the arabic world. And hence they started a process of eradicating everything that was regarded un-islamic, buddhism being one of the worst things they knew. The whole of Thousand and One Nights could be seen as belonging to a program of wiping out every remaining trace of buddhism there still was in the genre of popular stories and folk tales.

??? ???

[Aemilius]

What is this magic word "qualified" ?
You could certainly say that Buddha Shakyamuni was not qualified, because he was not a brahmin and hence didn't have the secret lore of the Brahmins. And the brahmins have hated Buddha Shakyamuni for that ever since. They don't say it in public in India, but if you live there as a buddhist for a longer time, you will get to know it. This is what I have been told.
I remember there are some nice stories about people looking for a teacher in sufism, who are never satisfied, etc... You can't guarantee a teacher as "qualified" with a diploma from an expensive university. Which maybe how you want it? ( and by "university" I mean any kind of insitute).

[gregkavarnos]

What is this magic word "qualified" ?

Correct knowledge, training and realisation (since we are talking about spirituality) in the practice. Nothing magical there. Just logical and intelligent.

You could certainly say that Buddha Shakyamuni was not qualified, because he was not a brahmin and hence didn't have the secret lore of the Brahmins. And the brahmins have hated Buddha Shakyamuni for that ever since.

If you are a Mahayanaist then you know that Buddha Shakyamuni was a Nirmanakaya. If you are a Theravadrin (and not only) then you will know (via the Dhammapada) that Shakyamuni Buddha was a Brahmin at some point during his spiritual career.

I remember there are some nice stories about people looking for a teacher in sufism, who are never satisfied, etc... You can't guarantee a teacher as "qualified" with a diploma from an expensive university. Which maybe how you want it? ( and by "uetniversity" I mean any kind of insitute).

Tell you what. You follow your eclectic mish mash of spiritual conspiracy theories and rely on self-made gurus and I will follow a traditional path with qualified teachers and we'll meet up again in 20 years and compare notes. Until then you will not bust my chops about being a stick-in-the-mud die-hard traditionalist and I will not make any further references to your extraterrestial influences.

Deal?

[Nighthawk]

That is one epic turban.

[Aemilius]

What is this magic word "qualified" ?

Correct knowledge, training and realisation (since we are talking about spirituality) in the practice. Nothing magical there. Just logical and intelligent.

You could certainly say that Buddha Shakyamuni was not qualified, because he was not a brahmin and hence didn't have the secret lore of the Brahmins. And the brahmins have hated Buddha Shakyamuni for that ever since.

If you are a Mahayanaist then you know that Buddha Shakyamuni was a Nirmanakaya. If you are a Theravadrin (and not only) then you will know (via the Dhammapada) that Shakyamuni Buddha was a Brahmin at some point during his spiritual career.

I remember there are some nice stories about people looking for a teacher in sufism, who are never satisfied, etc... You can't guarantee a teacher as "qualified" with a diploma from an expensive university. Which maybe how you want it? ( and by "uetniversity" I mean any kind of insitute).

Tell you what. You follow your eclectic mish mash of spiritual conspiracy theories and rely on self-made gurus and I will follow a traditional path with qualified teachers and we'll meet up again in 20 years and compare notes. Until then you will not bust my chops about being a stick-in-the-mud die-hard traditionalist and I will not make any further references to your extraterrestial influences.

Deal?

I am a Mahayanist. Before in 1970's I thought that Mahayana is a symbolic truth or a poetic truth, which is an other level of reality than the Sravakayana sutras.
Then some time in 1980's one day I realized that the Perfection Wisdom Sutras and the whole of the Mahayana were the actual concrete truth, they were concrete reality. They had been taught for a purpose, and were not a later invention. The path is difficult to understand for those not treading it, and so the scholars have made great errors (about the Mahayana).

Dhammapada is essential reading, but you have misunderstood what the Buddha says there. Buddha tried to change the meaning of the word "Brahman". He used it in the sense of an arya, i.e. a person who has in this life attained spiritual realization through his own efforts. Which is contrary to the hereditary or caste meaning of the word. If you doubt this, please consult any knowledgeable buddhist, like Ven. Sravasti Dhammika as an example!

[Aemilius]

The requirements of right speech apply to the subject of external path practitioners also.
" And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."