Dharma Wheel

Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.

Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith

The question contains the assumption that both are bad.

KeithBC wrote:

Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.

Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith

Thank you for those kind words Keith. It's good to see you here too, you old Hippy, you!

catmoon wrote:The question contains the assumption that both are bad.

'Lo Catmoon

It would be hard to say that the OP's question has made the assumption that both are bad without saying that the buddha only 'assumed' both to be bad, 'not good' at best, when he made precepts against them both too?

Suppose there is someone reading this thread who has had no exposure Buddhism. And suppose he just got home after dinner at the pub. What do suppose he would make of Buddhism after reading the title of this thread?

catmoon wrote:Suppose there is someone reading this thread who has had no exposure Buddhism. And suppose he just got home after dinner at the pub. What do suppose he would make of Buddhism after reading the title of this thread?

I suppose he or she may not like some of the comments or precepts. But the Dharma is not for the faint of heart. The Buddha describes in one discourse some people who are not ready for the Dharma and that includes those not very disciplined and some other factors, I don't have the reference handy right now.

But the precepts are guidelines, not commandments. A person can drink and eat meat and still be a Buddhist. Attaining enlightenment or another noble state is another matter, but those are difficult to attain even for those who never eat meat or drink alcohol.

It is a gradual path. The moment of enlightenment might be instantly, but the process is gradual.

I eat meat and drink sake

Namo Amida butsu

Namu Butsu wrote:I eat meat and drink sake

Namo Amida butsu

You eat your mothers and make it public?

Unless you would suffer a health problem otherwise, you have little reason to eat meat. I'm sure you've heard all the arguments against meat eating.

Worse by far in possible consequences is alcohol consumption. The heedlessness that can result can put all the precepts in danger of being broken.

Huseng you may want to read the book "The Vegetarian Myth"

Wasn't there many enlightened tibetan masters who ate meat? hmmm...perhaps your new rules takes away their buddhahood.

Gassho
Namo AMida Butsu

KeithBC wrote:

Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.

Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith

Wow. You guys really need to get a grip

Whens the last time you heard about a guy having a few hot dogs during a football game and then beating up his wife after his team lost?

Or how about someone eating a huge steak and killing a few innocents because they couldnt control their car?

m0rl0ck wrote:

KeithBC wrote:

Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.

Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith

Wow. You guys really need to get a grip

Whens the last time you heard about a guy having a few hot dogs during a football game and then beating up his wife after his team lost?

Or how about someone eating a huge steak and killing a few innocents because they couldnt control their car?

Meat consumption directly fuels and supports an industry that ghoulishly murders countless innocent animals that have already been tortured and mistreated continually since their birth.

Having a couple drinks and maybe getting into an argument can't compare.

Namu Butsu wrote:Huseng you may want to read the book "The Vegetarian Myth"

Wasn't there many enlightened tibetan masters who ate meat? hmmm...perhaps your new rules takes away their buddhahood.

Gassho
Namo AMida Butsu

Are you an enlightened master living in Tibet? Do you even live in Tibet?

My own Tibetan teacher eats meat, but praises vegetarianism and has stated in his future life he hopes he can be vegetarian. As it stands now he would suffer health problems if he quit eating meat abruptly.

That being said the mechanized cruelty of the modern meat industry is inexcusable. The present system is a bit different from a single yak being slaughtered by nomads. In our present system countless animals are raised in horrid conditions, tortured and put to death. The system only exists because of a consumer demand for the product. If you purchase the product you support the system and are a cause for it existing.

The compassionate thing is to refrain from meat consumption for the well-being of the butcher (they only kill animals due to consumer demand) and for the animals who are being slaughtered.

If you are healthy and live in a place where a vegetarian diet is easily done, you should refrain from consuming meat.

Luke wrote:I'm curious to find out how people view drinking alcohol in comparison to eating meat. Which one do you think is worse?

Neither are bad per se.

Anger destroys virtue and creates bad karma (and I've been hopping angry for about 2 hrs wrestling with stuff online).

Sexual immorality destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Killing destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Intoxication destroys virtue and creates bad karma (unless one has taken a vow not to take any alcohol at all). Alcohol can also be used medicinally.

Harsh speech, lying, etc destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Stealing destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Eating meat and drinking alcohol do not in and of themselves destroy virtue or create bad karma (I know what the Lanka and many Chinese and other Buddhists say).

Personally I try to minimize meat eating and alcohol drinking (I have to force myself to drink 1/2 glass of wine for health a day when not following Sojong vows). I also try not to be a pain to family so I will eat meat if they offer it on holidays and of course during some tantric feasts or if my lama asks to share a dish at a restaurant.

Kirt

Huseng wrote:If you are healthy and live in a place where a vegetarian diet is easily done, you should refrain from consuming meat.

Personally I agree but I would not push this on people.

Kirt

Namu Butsu wrote:Wasn't there many enlightened tibetan masters who ate meat?

Many. It was and still is the norm although with the Karmapa's example may be changing.

Kirt

Vegetarian baiting can be really good fun, but its just too easy
Karmically not a good idea either, i wouldnt think.
Also i dont need to clutter up my head with stuff like this, my practice suffers for it.

So im bowing out of the thread.

My apologies for my contribution to the general acrimony.

Metta to all

TMingyur wrote:An office party isn't a tantric ritual, right?

If one is practicing tantra at this level (Highest Yoga Tantra or Mahayoga tantra and above) then one also has the commitment to see all things in pure view so all activities are tantric activities so the office party is in fact (or should in fact be) experienced as a tantric feast.

Kirt

Let's look at the textual part.

The Pratimoksha (monks' rules) forbids alcohol but only certain meats, both are a minor precept.
The five, eight, ten precepts forbid alcohol, say nothing about meat.
The 10 major bodhisattva precepts forbid selling alcohol, the 48 minor precepts forbid both alcohol and meat. (Brahmajala Sutra - Chinese tradition)
Neither the primary (18), nor the secondary (46) bodhisattva vows forbid meat eating, and alcohol only by referring to other precepts (Tibetan tradition)

As for sutras on meat (those I can think of now):

The Lankavatara Sutra forbids eating meat.
The Surangama Sutra forbids eating meat and everything else of animal origin, or contact with animal products.
The Nirvana Sutra forbids eating meat but allows other animal products to be consumed and used.

Conclusion:

Alcohol consumption is against the precepts, however, in itself it is karmically neutral.
Meat consumption is against only one version of minor bodhisattva precepts, its karmic negativity is minimum dubious.

You dont have to have a health problem in order to avoid vegetarianism. The so called myth that vegetarianism is the healthy way to live has been bebunked.

Gassho
Namo Amida Butsu