Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).

Which do you think is worse?

Eating meat
12
34%
Drinking alcohol
16
46%
Neither: They are equally bad
7
20%
 
Total votes: 35

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KathyLauren
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by KathyLauren »

Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.
Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith
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catmoon
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by catmoon »

The question contains the assumption that both are bad.
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Clueless Git »

KeithBC wrote:
Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.
Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith
Thank you for those kind words Keith. It's good to see you here too, you old Hippy, you! :cheers:
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Clueless Git »

catmoon wrote:The question contains the assumption that both are bad.
'Lo Catmoon :)

It would be hard to say that the OP's question has made the assumption that both are bad without saying that the buddha only 'assumed' both to be bad, 'not good' at best, when he made precepts against them both too?
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catmoon
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by catmoon »

Suppose there is someone reading this thread who has had no exposure Buddhism. And suppose he just got home after dinner at the pub. What do suppose he would make of Buddhism after reading the title of this thread?
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by DNS »

catmoon wrote:Suppose there is someone reading this thread who has had no exposure Buddhism. And suppose he just got home after dinner at the pub. What do suppose he would make of Buddhism after reading the title of this thread?
I suppose he or she may not like some of the comments or precepts. But the Dharma is not for the faint of heart. The Buddha describes in one discourse some people who are not ready for the Dharma and that includes those not very disciplined and some other factors, I don't have the reference handy right now.

But the precepts are guidelines, not commandments. A person can drink and eat meat and still be a Buddhist. Attaining enlightenment or another noble state is another matter, but those are difficult to attain even for those who never eat meat or drink alcohol.

It is a gradual path. The moment of enlightenment might be instantly, but the process is gradual.
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Namu Butsu
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Namu Butsu »

I eat meat and drink sake

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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Huseng »

Namu Butsu wrote:I eat meat and drink sake

Namo Amida butsu
You eat your mothers and make it public?

Unless you would suffer a health problem otherwise, you have little reason to eat meat. I'm sure you've heard all the arguments against meat eating.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by m0rl0ck »

Worse by far in possible consequences is alcohol consumption. The heedlessness that can result can put all the precepts in danger of being broken.
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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Namu Butsu
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Namu Butsu »

Huseng you may want to read the book "The Vegetarian Myth"

Wasn't there many enlightened tibetan masters who ate meat? hmmm...perhaps your new rules takes away their buddhahood.

Gassho
Namo AMida Butsu
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"Just say the nembutsu and be liberated" Shinran Shonin
"However hard it may be to bid farewell to this world, when the conditions that bind us to this saha [samsara] realm run out, we are powerless to do anything as the final hour arrives and we are swept away to that Land." -A Record in Lament of Divergences
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by m0rl0ck »

KeithBC wrote:
Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.
Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith
Wow. You guys really need to get a grip :jumping:

Whens the last time you heard about a guy having a few hot dogs during a football game and then beating up his wife after his team lost?

Or how about someone eating a huge steak and killing a few innocents because they couldnt control their car?
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

~Werner Erhard
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Huseng »

m0rl0ck wrote:
KeithBC wrote:
Clueless Git wrote: Those who know what it is like to be free of both will undoubtedly vote that the worse of the two is meat.
Insightful as always, CG. Good to see you here!

Om mani padme hum
Keith
Wow. You guys really need to get a grip :jumping:

Whens the last time you heard about a guy having a few hot dogs during a football game and then beating up his wife after his team lost?

Or how about someone eating a huge steak and killing a few innocents because they couldnt control their car?
Meat consumption directly fuels and supports an industry that ghoulishly murders countless innocent animals that have already been tortured and mistreated continually since their birth.

Having a couple drinks and maybe getting into an argument can't compare.
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Huseng »

Namu Butsu wrote:Huseng you may want to read the book "The Vegetarian Myth"

Wasn't there many enlightened tibetan masters who ate meat? hmmm...perhaps your new rules takes away their buddhahood.

Gassho
Namo AMida Butsu
Are you an enlightened master living in Tibet? Do you even live in Tibet?

My own Tibetan teacher eats meat, but praises vegetarianism and has stated in his future life he hopes he can be vegetarian. As it stands now he would suffer health problems if he quit eating meat abruptly.

That being said the mechanized cruelty of the modern meat industry is inexcusable. The present system is a bit different from a single yak being slaughtered by nomads. In our present system countless animals are raised in horrid conditions, tortured and put to death. The system only exists because of a consumer demand for the product. If you purchase the product you support the system and are a cause for it existing.

The compassionate thing is to refrain from meat consumption for the well-being of the butcher (they only kill animals due to consumer demand) and for the animals who are being slaughtered.

If you are healthy and live in a place where a vegetarian diet is easily done, you should refrain from consuming meat.
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kirtu
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by kirtu »

Luke wrote:I'm curious to find out how people view drinking alcohol in comparison to eating meat. Which one do you think is worse?
Neither are bad per se.

Anger destroys virtue and creates bad karma (and I've been hopping angry for about 2 hrs wrestling with stuff online).

Sexual immorality destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Killing destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Intoxication destroys virtue and creates bad karma (unless one has taken a vow not to take any alcohol at all). Alcohol can also be used medicinally.

Harsh speech, lying, etc destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Stealing destroys virtue and creates bad karma.

Eating meat and drinking alcohol do not in and of themselves destroy virtue or create bad karma (I know what the Lanka and many Chinese and other Buddhists say).

Personally I try to minimize meat eating and alcohol drinking (I have to force myself to drink 1/2 glass of wine for health a day when not following Sojong vows). I also try not to be a pain to family so I will eat meat if they offer it on holidays and of course during some tantric feasts or if my lama asks to share a dish at a restaurant.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
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kirtu
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by kirtu »

Huseng wrote:If you are healthy and live in a place where a vegetarian diet is easily done, you should refrain from consuming meat.
Personally I agree but I would not push this on people.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by kirtu »

Namu Butsu wrote:Wasn't there many enlightened tibetan masters who ate meat?
Many. It was and still is the norm although with the Karmapa's example may be changing.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by m0rl0ck »

Vegetarian baiting can be really good fun, but its just too easy :)
Karmically not a good idea either, i wouldnt think.
Also i dont need to clutter up my head with stuff like this, my practice suffers for it.

So im bowing out of the thread.

My apologies for my contribution to the general acrimony.

Metta to all :heart:
Ride the horse in the direction its going.

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kirtu
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by kirtu »

TMingyur wrote:An office party isn't a tantric ritual, right?
If one is practicing tantra at this level (Highest Yoga Tantra or Mahayoga tantra and above) then one also has the commitment to see all things in pure view so all activities are tantric activities so the office party is in fact (or should in fact be) experienced as a tantric feast.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Astus »

Let's look at the textual part.

The Pratimoksha (monks' rules) forbids alcohol but only certain meats, both are a minor precept.
The five, eight, ten precepts forbid alcohol, say nothing about meat.
The 10 major bodhisattva precepts forbid selling alcohol, the 48 minor precepts forbid both alcohol and meat. (Brahmajala Sutra - Chinese tradition)
Neither the primary (18), nor the secondary (46) bodhisattva vows forbid meat eating, and alcohol only by referring to other precepts (Tibetan tradition)

As for sutras on meat (those I can think of now):

The Lankavatara Sutra forbids eating meat.
The Surangama Sutra forbids eating meat and everything else of animal origin, or contact with animal products.
The Nirvana Sutra forbids eating meat but allows other animal products to be consumed and used.

Conclusion:

Alcohol consumption is against the precepts, however, in itself it is karmically neutral.
Meat consumption is against only one version of minor bodhisattva precepts, its karmic negativity is minimum dubious.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Eating Meat vs. Drinking Alcohol--Which is worse?

Post by Namu Butsu »

You dont have to have a health problem in order to avoid vegetarianism. The so called myth that vegetarianism is the healthy way to live has been bebunked.

Gassho
Namo Amida Butsu
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"Just say the nembutsu and be liberated" Shinran Shonin
"However hard it may be to bid farewell to this world, when the conditions that bind us to this saha [samsara] realm run out, we are powerless to do anything as the final hour arrives and we are swept away to that Land." -A Record in Lament of Divergences
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