mobile clinics to euthanise people

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mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:27 am

here is the article,

Death on wheels: Dutch to send mobile clinics to euthanise people in their own homes


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lland.html


now i have my own views about this, and i dont want this topic to be about my views, really about buddhist opinions on government run euthanasia.

what i was not expecting were the comments at the bottom of the article presenting this as if it was a great idea, and that is really the point of this thread topic.

why the public seems to go along and favour this, after all that history shows us, what is next after this?

curious.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:32 am

Pain: To qualify for euthanasia in Holland, patients must convince doctors they are making an informed choice in the face of unbearable suffering - which can include extreme loneliness



this part i found quite creepy.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:37 am

I can't speak for any buddhists
My opinion this thing will repeat itself if it is not gone through.
Early stage dementia I'd guess peoples are intending to get away from the consequences of late stage...but unfortunatly to my opinion in the next life or later this will repeat quite unfortunatly.
So it must be lived through I'd say there is no avoiding it by suicide.
If it was that simple I expect it is not.

So that is what I think of it.
A brit right wing newspaper like fox news. Politically I see not a reason people could not commit suicide if that be their choice.
That I believe it is a wrong choice does not mean to be government should take away the choice.
To children or those in advanced stage dementia who cannot make those choices certainly
others it is their choice not a government.

It tibetan buddhism committing suicide is thought by some to be also killing a diety that lives aside us. So it is a most heinous crime to some.
I agree the consequences are heinous...but outlawed that....I don't agree.
My opinon only though.

If I was dutch I'd probably be very pissed.
I believe it is the dutch that have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world due to a wide education program on parenthood.
I'd say what say you on our internal issues.
Work on your own. Fox news...geeze louise

no government but government enough to control things like this.... plenty of government to go around for that in these peoples eyes.
Which is what they want...to control these type of things.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:46 am

ronnewmexico wrote:My opinon only though.


a valid one.

i was thinking of how the nazi system first presented the killing of the disabled and mentally ill by a process of three doctors, all independent of each other, signing off on who was to be presented as good case for euthanisa, never having met the patient at all.

troublesome to my mind if one is not in position to fight for ones life that another can speak for you to take it away. the article (right wing nuts) :quoteunquote: as you say, has comments very much in favour, and not a very right wing nut right to life argument. i can only assume that the dutch government (have not looked) is a liberal left socialist party, which makes me wonder about whom was making public comments in favour of anti life. it does not fit in my opinion.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:53 am

ronnewmexico wrote:
If I was dutch I'd probably be very pissed.
I believe it is the dutch that have one of the lowest abortion rates in the world due to a wide education program on parenthood.
I'd say what say you on our internal issues.
Work on your own. Fox news...geeze louise

no government but government enough to control things like this.... plenty of government to go around for that in these peoples eyes.
Which is what they want...to control these type of things.


dear ron, i was more curious about the mindset where people agree this is a good idea, i presented awhile ago the article "the case for killing granny" and am curious about the root of such self loathing, for it cannot be from people that love life and the wonder of the world, it can only be applied and reinforced through a wide spectrum of "modern times", some form of mind trick of a scientific matrix.

what giant balls to roll it out and say...hey its great!!

and people say....yes it is!!!
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:59 am

My guess is that this be only done with the request of the patient, not as may otherwise be infered .
Early stage dementia I could see why one would want that. I frequenting such places on occaion it is most dim and painful the eventual result of dementia of the progressive sort.
Later stage is characterized by depression so ones decision would not be viable.

In any event it is always a wrong choice suicide

I have a brother who is demented due to other cause.
He speaks to me of suicide every time I see him
But though I tell him it is pointless he forgets and then I have to say it again and again
Demented he could not make a rational choice.
Medically it is not a informed decision
So medically it could not be done it violates the medical oath.

Moot point really excepting fox news

ah such is life.....sad
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:59 am

ronnewmexico wrote:...but outlawed that....I don't agree.



ron can you remember the woman in florida case?
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:01 am

ronnewmexico wrote:
I have a brother who is demented due to other cause.
He speaks to me of suicide every time I see him
But though I tell him it is pointless he forgets and then I have to say it again and again
Demented he could not make a rational choice.
Medically it is not a informed decision
So medically it could not be done it violates the medical oath.



ah such is life.....sad



i feel for ya bro.

it is tough no mistake about that.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:03 am

i found it.

Terri Schiavo.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case

The Terri Schiavo case ( /ˈʃaɪvoʊ/) was a legal battle in the United States between the legal guardians and the parents of Teresa Marie "Terri" Schiavo that lasted from 1998 to 2005. At issue was whether the husband's granted motions and later court findings to forgo further life-prolonging procedures or life support treatment for Terri, who was diagnosed by doctors as being in a persistent vegetative state, would be carried out. The highly publicized and prolonged series of legal challenges presented by the parents and by state and federal legislative intervention effected in total a seven-year delay before life support finally was terminated.


from buddhist perspective does a "diagnosed by doctors as being in a persistent vegetative state" mean that the sentience of a person is a function of brain activity, ie no brain activity (vegetative state) equal no sentience and therefore no right to protect the life?
Last edited by Heruka on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:05 am

Used that was by the right wing
She was kept alive by external support(feeding tube) discontinued she died
The feds congress tried to pass a law specific to her disregarding her legal guardian (her husband) and the medical opinion of her docs.

So we have govenment intruding on medical decisions.
After death her functioning brain the size of a orange
What they were unmedically taking as self guided movement were autotomic movements reflexive in nature.
But politicians being not docs did not know that
the docs that were in congress and favored that legislation...never did a exam of her

Her family dad and mom were not the legal guardian her husband was
They were however religious fundamentalists

The whole thing was a travesty
The idea feds should be making that decision...absurd. Legal guardian by determination of her docs and concurrent opinion that is how it is done always.
It happens about a thousand times a day in a nation of 400 million or so. But political theater it became in that one case.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:10 am

ronnewmexico wrote:Used that was by the right wing
She was kept alive by external support(feeding tube) discontinued she died
The feds congress tried to pass a law specific to her disregarding her legal guardian (her husband) and the medical opinion of her docs.

So we have govenment intruding on medical decisions.
After death her functioning brain the size of a orange
What they were unmedically taking as self guided movement were autotomic movements reflexive in nature.
But politicians being not docs did not know that
the docs that were in congress and favored that legislation...never did a exam of her

Her family dad and mom were not the legal guardian her husband was
They were however religious fundamentalists

The whole thing was a travesty
The idea feds should be making that decision...absurd. Legal guardian by determination of her docs and concurrent opinion that is how it is done always.
It happens about a thousand times a day in a nation of 400 million or so. But political theater it became in that one case.



yeah very sad.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:15 am

To my opinion the function of human life is for the spiritual.
With no potential of spiritual thing there is not much point in a human life
Not that one should be killed but brain dead...one can pull the plug.

I pulled the plug on my dad about 3 years or so ago............ more so I did not refuse their medical opinion to discontinue support, to be exact.
It is what happens in hospice care always...they pull the plug
Life support many years a person could be kept alive but with no brain there is not use to it

If the brain is left intact they will start breathing or eating on their own
Their are tests that are done to determine the viability of brain tissue
no brain but scar or swiss cheese by appearence.....

this happens always all the time
Last edited by ronnewmexico on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:16 am

ronnewmexico wrote:They were however religious fundamentalists



is there no appeal to a higher authority here, could her right to life been a god given one and not a federal one? should not the court of upheld that right on religious grounds? or does the state viewing you as colateral ( like live stock on a farm ) an human resource, feels it trumps your god given?

this is the getting closer to the core of the issue, how we view ourselves naturally free born and full of life, or how we let others breakdown how we view ourselves to the point of suicide.
Last edited by Heruka on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:18 am

ronnewmexico wrote:To my opinion the function of human life is for the spiritual.
With no potential of spiritual thing there is not much point in a human life
Not that one should be killed but brain dead...one can pull the plug.

I pulled the plug on my dad about 3 years or so ago............ more so I did not refuse their medical opinion to discontinue support, to be exact.
It is what happens in hospice care always...they pull the plug
Life support many years a person could be kept alive but with no brain there is not use to it

If the brain is left intact they will start breathing or eating on their own
Their are tests that are done to determine the viability of brain tissue
no brain but scar or swiss cheese by appearence.....

this happens always all the time



yes i can understand this, i want to remain open minded.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:21 am

There in america exists a large large body of case law on this issue.
Mostly it is the legal guardian and the docs
The legal guardian is the one representing the religious side of the issue
If one wants a person by religious or other reason to be kept alive even with no brain...the docs are compelled to do it

Now if one is being absurd about it(perhaps the guardian is a madperson) then the docs can step in with assistance of adult protective services or some such local governmental agency and become or have appointed through court order another, perhaps impartial, legal guardian
But that is very rare.

Eventually these peoples generally even with support end up with some organ failure or other. In which event a transplant is not a option.
A doc may do that if the money is available and at hand. Years ago I think they kept Howard Hughes a very rich person alive for years and years.
But normally there is no money for that.A insurance company will not cover the costs and there is little in the way of success rate in such things.
So docs advise against it and the legal guardian almost always go with the docs.
So they pull the plug.

Could they fight all that if they have not the money...a court will go with the docs always and for good reason. It is generally a medical decision
Last edited by ronnewmexico on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:27 am

ronnewmexico wrote:
Now if one is being absurd about it(perhaps the guardian is a madperson) then the docs can step in with assistance of adult protective services or some such local governmental agency and become or have appointed through court order another, perhaps impartial, legal guardian
But that is very rare.


i just smell abuse here ron, there are many cases, which form a systematic pattern where authority can steal property, money from old age pensioners due to how the state ( protective services ) label you.

we can open up a whole new can of worms with this.
:namaste:
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:31 am

Adult protective services is a local governmental agency who is present in about all areas of the americas and are charged with the responsibility of seeing to it the rights of the disabled are in force.

That is a local governmental agency but it has federal funding through medicare as well.
So doing away with government in that regard...and yes what you say could happen
For now...no they are legally charged with that task and cannot abdicate it.
If they did there would be civil and criminal charge.

The patients retain a right to legal represenation in all matters of the court as usually determined by the legal guardian.
It is a court fight each side presents a case.
Usually the only problem is if there is a contested guardianship in which opposeing parties claim guardianship.
Similiar to Shaivo though the parents had not a legal leg to stand upon..hence the congressional law attempt.
We can't meet you in court we get the law changed....heinous

Any attorney involved will be looking closely at adult protective services to see if they are representing their client in a adequate manner.
If found not...all hell to pay, by legal action against them.
Big pockets government one may hope they were acting thusly.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby Heruka » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:39 am

ronnewmexico wrote:Adult protective services is a local governmental agency who is present in about all areas of the americas and are charged with the responsibility of seeing to it the rights of the disabled are in force.



i feel sad about that ron, im just not seeing this in real world. it involves to many angles to get into, but the preying on and abuse of the elderly can start with a simple report from neighbour that your grass has grown too long. we can and should discuss that in another thread, the local threat to your property and savings by pirates.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:49 am

Sorry no
I have had experience with them in the cases of my father and my brother most recently, and in a limited fashion in the past in a professional context.
Good people trying their best in a difficult job is what I see.

This could happen or that...no not the way it is now. Remove government from the equation so there is not a adult protective services(in america)...and very shortly could that happen.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: mobile clinics to euthanise people

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:26 am

On the other hand Heruka the american senate apparently just passed a defense appropriation bill which has a feature in it allowing any american citizen to be held without charge, for a indeterminate amount of time in military prison. No recourse not a trail nothing, released when the war is won apparently.

A total of six senators voted against it.
And as the american defense estabishment has been known to be in error at times...like the vast vast majoirty ofl guantanamo inmates being released from prison with not a charge amongst them.

you want grannies or anyones land or anything at all really...just have them declared a terrorist. Who declares the terrorist....the military. Who holds the terrorist without trial the military. legal recourse...none. Veto by obama....I suspect not.

No hocus pocus stuff...this just passed the senate.
Free america...by by.
Hello facism.

No one knows about this apparently. FAcism here and not a whistle whister or bleet of complaint. Nothing...none to read this I guess they don't know a bit
what I am talking about. So sad..coming for me now they are not.
I wish this were made up or just the daily mail..unfortunately not.

A ammendment to strip this failed 37-61. the link....http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57333243-503544/senate-keeps-controversial-detainee-policy-in-defense-bill/.........

but I am not a terrorists...says who...... comes a large large voice. In prison detained you will be saying that to walls of concrete.
Terrorist be all may be safely stated..in the eyes of the beholder.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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